[Keroko]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Unfortunately, you are, more often than not, unable to find specific errors. Me, on the other hand, present specific visual evidence, complete with analysis if I want to override a piece of text.

To use your general position, it'll be akin of me using the Executor 5-mile fiasco to justify throwing out all text.

I suppose I could take you up on your challenge and list a few counterpoints, but I really don't feel like making this debate personal. If we could both just refrain from making personal comments like this, I'm sure it'll make this sound less like a flame war.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Now, a few points:
1) "High-speed" is not specific. High speed? Relative to what? Relative to magic bombs fired by the average Middie 9-year old mage? If anything, the speed range shown in the show is much more specific than vague statements of "high-speed", and thus it defines what the author meant when she scribbed "High-speed".
2) She also mumbled something about "an instant", but if that was literally true under normal definitions of "instant", Vita won't have time to change expression like she did, so that was a self-bust there. If instant is only figurative, then it can mean almost anything.
3) Again, the source is in-universe, not God's eye, as can be seen in the many times when the author clearly shows doubt in the conclusion ("it is thought" and all that). It is entirely possible the writer did not even see a video of the attack before writing that.

1) Irrelevant. It was specifically labeled a High Speed attack while it wasn't measured and compared as such.
2) Which only proves that visuals are less reliable then booklets.
3) Very possible. Script generally predates visuals.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

I'll say that books and dialogue are at least equally influenced by what sounds good. If you say they slowed down the beam because it looked better that way, I can say, with at least equal validity, they embellished the speed of the round on the page because that's how it'll read best.

On the contrary, the booklets were meant to be informative. While you have a point that they may write things in a way that will read best, that does not change that the goal of the booklets is to inform, rather then the anime's goal to entertain.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

I also notice "the budget" is not listed as a factor here. Is it because you know actually portraying it as "an instant" would probably be cheaper from all the saved frames?

It would, but budget is a tricky thing. If you cut everywhere, you're left with little that looks cool. It's a choice between extending a scene for dramatization and cutting it for budget.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Away from what? Signum? Or from the screen. I know you suck at estimating distances by eye, so why don't you show how you calculated the distance? You've seen countless of my samples, you should know how to do this by now.

I expected you to lunge for your own files and do calculations yourself. My apologies.

Examples away!

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

10/0.835=~11.97m/s. Please tell me that was a chance error.

It was. Or rather, it was a typo on my part, I meant to say 'not even 12'

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Close to the ground.

Yes, but I doubt simply being in the sky would change that to 12 m/s.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Try this. Start by calculating Signum's approximate distance from the BoD. There are some nice frames before the shot is fired that you can use. Then time. You should find that the round can just reach supersonic if you assume images taken with lenses in the normal-perspective range (you'll have to use the far end, though - the near end IIRC is about high subsonic, but is still faster than just about any shot shown on screen).

If you says so...

Using this frame, Signum is about 16 pixels tall. Nanoha at 8 pixels was about 100 meters away if I remember, Signum is twice as tall as Nanoha, 16 pixels would put her at a similar distance, correct? Then assuming 100 meters distance, and the total elapsed time from the shot being fired till hitting is 2,044 seconds (shot fired at 0:16:47.298, shot hit at 0:16:49.342). Calculating, 100/2,044 leaves us with a total speed of 48,9 m/s, which still doesn't even get close to supersonic speeds.

And claiming it makes a slow start leaves you to explain the shockwave after firing. After all, you do keep saying not to discard any observations...

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Now, if you are right, then at best you have equality in specificity. Unfortunately, that still leaves reliability. Remember, out of universe vs in-universe.

Yes, and intent. The booklets are intended to be informative, whereas the anime is intended to be entertaining. As a source of information, which one is more reliable? One created for the purpose of informing, or one created for the purpose of entertainment?

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Yes, but that's far from being "rubble". Even a "catastrophic" kill of a tank which blasts the turret 50 feet high doesn't turn it into rubble, but the tank's undoubtedly destroyed.

I suppose or definitions of rubble differ there. A pile of metal that doesn't move is rubble to me.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

A candidate, but prove that this was it.

I did. That nice and shiny screenshot I posted there. Where's your proof it wasn't?

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

A bow and arrow is mass weaponry.

... They had nukes, robots and spaceships capable of dimensional travel Ark, not to mention Mariage, a weapon from that era, is equipped with firearms. On the flipside, there is zero evidence they didn't fight with these weaponry.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

I'll agree it is a reasonable interpolation IF you have no other data. But to insist on such in the face of counterevidence is pure dogma.

Then what about being kicked through concrete? Fate got kicked smashed several layers of earth-style concrete, and yet in StrikerS concrete suddenly became 'Midcrete?' Or what about the aforementioned booklets providing crystal clear counterevidence to your calculations?

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Whatever their technology was more advanced in, it was not in the field of making high or even medium velocity ammo.

That is based on the assumption that your calculations are accurate.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Does the scheme of "scene-cuts" go beyond your head?

Concidering I've worked in the editor business, no, no it doesn't.

But I'm amazed that suddenly, with a clear example of calculations not working, editorial techniques have become a valid explanation. We're making progress here.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

personal rant.

This is... interesting. Yet your view considering me is somewhat off. For example, I don't mind dramatization, for I realize that slowing down a projectile to make it look cool is.. well.. to make it look cool.

I also realize that when a comparison is made to a real-life weapon, then that weapon is assumed to be 'working as usual' even if the effect may not be displayed as such. Call it an aftereffect of having finished an education with animation. You'll find that many people in the animation industry share my thoughts. I recall a scene in an anime I saw recently, where a girl had the power to create things with words. She created a Flak 88 at one time, and fired it. The shot missed her enemy, but a buddy kicked the bullet back to her enemy.

It was a real weapon, it fired a real bullet at real speeds. After all, why that was the intent of the scene, to make everything look awesome. I know that realistically speaking this is impossible, and that when calculated the speeds don't add up, but I don't mind. Because it looked awesome.

Oh, and your last line is a bit off. In both cases I would claim dramatization. There are many ways to dramatize after all.

As I said above, I will refrain from commenting my views on you. I have no desire to let this debate become personal and steeped in biased observations of one another.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Another question. From the flow of the story, it would seem reasonable to deduce that Subaru was pretty close to IX when the Miriage fired. We'll assume Subaru's barrier jacket is really l33t for this paragraph only, and she had no time to cast any protection. If that darn fragmentation shell was that powerful, how did the Ix, who's not in the protective field of the BJ, avoid being impaled by countless fragments?

She's Ix. The girl who wandered in a burning, collapsing building. An ancient immortal control device for Mariage. Aside from the fact that she most likely wasn't next to Subaru (the battle sounds like Mariage was pushing her back) she most likely has some system installed to keep her safe. Kinda like Vivio's Barrier of the Saint King.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

What kind of proof is that? If they didn't say it was a miss it must have been a direct hit? What kind of logic is this.

*shrug* Well you get to claim it was a miss without any backup, whereas I at least have some backup.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

In any case, since you've basically just said that Subaru DID NOT DODGE despite being given one second of flight time and several more of charge-up, suddenly Vita freezing like that during the 6-second flight time is given a lot of perspective.

Dramatization rears its head again. It's much more dramatic to hear Ix scream before the shot is fired.