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Old 2007-09-15, 22:04   Link #431
Ledgem
Love Yourself
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 38
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Originally Posted by Azure22 View Post
So yeah, we see Shinn mouth off towards Cagalli and Athrun, not knowing what they've been through, but we're only upset with him 'cause most viewers are biased towards them. Let's say someone we all hate was saying the stuff Cagalli was saying, and Shinn gave them a hard time. Most people would cheer Shinn on. Goddamn, don't ask me why, but when people are so biased towards the old characters, it bothers me... Probably just 'cause that bias in popularity effected the events in Gundam SEED Destiny too much, and made it so much worse than it could have been. Too many people were too infatuated with the old characters to try and see new ones blossoming...
Well, here's what's interesting about it: in most series that introduce new characters, while the old ones are still around, generally the new and old characters are on the same "side" of things. The old ones either pass on the torch to the new characters, or they come in to save the new ones every now and then... you get the idea. The only other series I've seen that botched new characters' introduction was Stratos 4: Second Flight (or whatever it was called), where three new pilots were introduced, only to have the original four return with drama of their own. I have to wonder if it wasn't intentional there, though, as even the new characters complain (comically) about how they just got here and already they've been sidelined.

But here, you have the old characters completely fighting with the new characters. Even worse, the new characters were completely aligned with the force of "evil" in the series. If Shinn had come around and fought alongside Kira and Athrun, or had they joined the plan, maybe people would have come to accept him more. One could argue that there was no evil - both sides wanted to prevent war, but had their own ways of doing it. That'd be valid, except that Athrun and Kira already have the just side in our minds, and the cinematic portrayals of the opposing side (ZAFT) made them seem evil, no matter how you put it.

I also understand where you're coming from with regard to Shinn getting upset at Cagalli, but when Shinn said "you don't know anything" (a few times, if I remember right), you really didn't feel anything? That's what set me off. We'd watched all of those characters struggle throughout the entire first series with the "realities of war" and finally reach a decision about how to deal with it. Then Shinn is there saying how they don't know anything, when he's only participated in a single battle? I wasn't very tolerant of that.

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Anyone else remember that it was a misfire from Freedom that killed his family?
I always thought that it was a fire from Raider (or whichever the blue one was) while engaged in a battle with Freedom and Justice. If it was Freedom, you do have a point and it does explain some of Shinn's hatred. As far as I can remember the series didn't clearly show that it was a shot from Freedom - I'll have to rewatch those sequences and get back to you on that.

They also do not play it up that Shinn wants revenge on Freedom for killing his family. Shinn just wants to take out Freedom because Freedom is powerful, and also because Freedom did kill Stellar. The revenge aspect was drawn from that.

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(after already contributing to the death of other characters, such as Heine, now), I wouldn't be none too happy either.
It also bothers me how all of the characters attributed Heine's death to Kira. Stellar killed Heine, combined with Heine's own lack of awareness of what was going on around him. Kira disabled one of his weapons, sure, but even if Heine was fully loaded, getting sliced in the back by a character that you were previously fighting with isn't Kira's fault. Heck, Kira wasn't even facing him when it happened. Do you want to blame Kira for not being omnipotent, and for not saving Heine from Stellar?

Actually, there's another loop of reasoning for why I get angry about Shinn. Shinn blames Kira for the death of Heine (although not as much as Athrun), and also for the death of Stellar. He also treats Stellar as if she had done nothing wrong. Yet, it was really Stellar that killed Heine. It just seems like two wrongs: letting Stellar get off of blame free, and then placing what should be her blame on Kira (who arguably had the purest intentions, even).


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And yes, of course Shinn can't bring himself to attack her, not when he thinks he has a shot of calming her down. He almost got her to stop completely before she saw the Freedom again... Proof that Kira screws stuff up.
Blaming Kira again. Kira was off floating in the distance, and drifted into Stellar's view. Kira didn't suddenly get up in front of Shinn. He even held back and gave Shinn a chance. Is it Kira's fault that he was spotted, and that Stellar had such mental issues that she was driven into a panic by the mere sight of him? Are you going to blame Kira for then stepping in and trying to save what was left of the populace and the city by going after the Destroy?

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It's worth noting that he did exactly what Orb did against the earth alliance in terms of what he did against Destroy. Orb tried to rely on negotiations, on diplomacy, on words, and it didn't work. Shinn tried to use those same words to reason with Stellar. Does this make him a hypocrite? Hell yeah.
No. The only reason he tried to reason with Stellar is because he loved her. When did he ever try to reason with any other character? He tried to reason with Athrun, when Athrun was trying to escape and avoid a fight, sure. I don't really think that should count, but I'd give you that one. Otherwise, I don't see talking to Stellar as anything about Orb's ideals. It just shows how Shinn was captivated and swayed by her. He even goes so far as to attack the Freedom, when Freedom is attempting to disable the Destroy.

I can see that we viewed a lot of these events differently, which I find interesting. From what you're saying, I can understand how Shinn would be a more likable character. The series still does too much to portray him in an almost villainish manner, though. From attacking Kira (and despite lamenting over the first time, doing it again!) to following orders without thought, to disobeying orders without thought (returning Stellar), it just reeks of a seemingly bad character. What really ices the cake is the fact that he killed the Orb general who not only holds the true ideals of Orb (which the series, at least, puts into our minds as the ultimate source of good), but who looked after Shinn in his time of need, and got him out of Orb. Shinn didn't know who he was killing, I know, but the cinematic portrayals put Shinn in a very, very bad light.
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