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Originally Posted by karice67
Spoiler for continuing...probably tl;dr for everyone else:
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My point was actually this: you said that "there is yaoi that targets male audiences". There isn't. It's a completely different genre.
And please tell me, how does saying "most yuri is written for women" contradict the fact that there is yuri written for male audiences?
"Josei" isn't a demographic. I'll admit I haven't been very clear on this idea, but the "Josei (manga) target audience" is a demographic, whilst "josei manga" is a category/genre. And where did I ever say that age and maturity were mutually exclusive?
But why in the world are we debating what the target audience for josei manga is? That wasn't the important point: the point I was trying to bring up to Solace and anyone else comparing BL/yaoi with josei manga is that most BL stuff is too romantic and cliched to fit under the characteristics of "josei manga". Which is why I said the following:
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Please tell me, how have I criticised others' anecdotes? I'm trying to correct some misconceptions people have about distinguishing between types of works by explaining the different terms being used and how their usage has varied (and continues to do so) even amongst different groups of English speakers. Let's face it, to answer the questions you posed in your opening post, people should probably be a bit clearer on exactly what it is they're talking about. Unless you don't want proper, well-reasoned answers of course, which is fine by me, since there are probably things I would be better off doing than trying to explain misconceptions that people have about the genres in Japanese media.
You were trying to correct me for something I had already posted (i.e. that 'yaoi' is also known as 'BL' amongst English speakers). In response, I merely brought up my own observations about their usage in the English-speaking fandom to support my argument that 'yaoi' is still the predominant term used in the West. And in the past (not sure about now), there used to be a clearer shounen ai vs. yaoi distinction used in the English-speaking fandom.
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And since I went back to the J-wiki to check
Usami_Haru is actually correct wrt Japan (well, except perhaps for the 'subtext' bit. e.g. Uraboku has plenty of subtext...but it's a fantasy/adventure, not BL). This is one, 'narrow' usage that the term 'yaoi' has taken on in the Japanese fandom. Though it is (apparently) still used by some people as a way of distinguishing between titles with 'no peak, no point, no meaning' and titles that actually do have some substance other than the so-called 'yummy bits'. Most people just stop at 'BL' though, rather than breaking it down into smaller categories.
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In the last post from you that I quoted, you said that
Yaoi is
predominantly aimed at female audiences, and the contradiction on the
Yuri side was your comment on it not being
shōnen or
seinen. And
Josei manga merely refers to the demographic; someone could very well be in their late teenage/adult years and have the mindset of a typical nine-year-old, or be a
fujoshi. And if
BL are too trite to be classified as
Josei manga, keep in mind that it--
Josei manga--can portray realistic relationships, but it does not always have to be. Finally, your posts in this thread came across to me as being critical; how one words things can make a difference between perceived as civil and not being viewed as such
. And in actuality, I've been a yuricon for as long as I've been an otaku, which was part of the reason I made this thread. So I'm trying to put aside definition issues in favor of more general opinions. I did not and do not expect responses from more, er, versed people. In fact...
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If you mean 'explicit' as in not 'subtext' within another genre like fantasy/moe, then I agree.
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Well I don't think another particular genre is necessary, but you're about right. To my mind, BL or GL could be mistaken as just being "very intense friendship", while Yaoi/Yuri actually shows them in love, usually undertaking activities like kissing or sex of some kind. Or even just referring to the fact they're in love with one another.
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...I actually do try to make that distinction, but I don't imagine others doing so. If I wanted more *AHEM* specialized answers, I would have asked somewhere else.