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Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0
Well, guess what? When some guy comes and tells you that moe fans only like childish girls because they can't handle real women, and tries to cite the popularity of characters like Yui and Ayu as evidence, telling them "moe fans don't exist" isn't useful. These people know exactly what they're attacking, and likely their audience does too. On the other hand, pointing out that there's a solid chance those fans they're talking about also like Hitagi Senjougahara and Rin Tohsaka is useful. Personally, I'd combine it with a statement about what I think of the characters they cite (hint: Yui is far, far from my "perfect woman") in a double pronged attack. And guess what? An appeal to "moe traits" is very useful for showing that those fans probably like Hitagi and Rin. Hence why I think moe fans should know the various ways that something can be designated "moe": they can be very useful.
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Well, just to be clear from the offset, I don't necessarily agree with the argument that "moe fans don't exist", I just think it's hopelessly nebulous as to what exactly that contains (and what it excludes).
But that aside... if you also have followed my own arguments on this issue over the years, you will also see that my approach has always been to combat judgemental stereotypes with a broader more thought-out perspective. So what you're saying about "broadening the spectrum" and showing that the word has a much broader meaning is exactly what I've always tried to do. Trying to
broaden the definition from someone's invalid stereotype is not the problem. If someone says "
moe is <x>", it's really easy to say "but it's also <y>, and <z>", where <y> and <z> are less controversial and more acceptable than <x>.
But now, try to turn around and constrain things and to define a single "moe box" that
does accurately contain everything it should and exclude everything it shouldn't. I'm a bit partial to the point you said in the other thread about there being a multitude of different genres that all can be grouped on some giant "moe umbrella" (or at least "styles of content that often, but don't necessarily, evoke moe feelings"). That's an interesting way of looking at it, and may be a more fruitful approach. But, in that regard, I still think it's better to come up with other more clear and descriptive terms that accurately describe similar things (and exclude dissimilar ones) outside of the confines of "moe".
Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0
Second, I take pride in liking these "moe shows" some claim don't exist. I'm not audacious enough to try and claim NGE or TTGL (though I'm totally willing to claim some of their characters). I am, however, enthusiastic to lay claim to stuff like Crime Edge, Red Data Girl, Utawarerumono, Haruhi, Bakemonogatari, and Spice and Wolf - to name just a few. I see little reason to back down because someone might disagree with how I delineate the moe world.
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But where does it end? I mean, if you group all those shows into a bucket called "moe anime", what does it even tell the uninitiated viewer about the content? Genres are only useful in the sense that they help people identify like things. In the end, your usage is more like an attribute that can be attached to (almost?)
any show, regardless of genre or style. When I'm explaining Utawarerumono to someone, it's far more useful to point to its RPG connection (action/fantasy). When I'm explaining Bakemonogatari, I'd probably go more the supernatural/romance descriptor. Haruhi is a bit hard to describe, but I don't think it adds any more clarity if I say "it's a moe anime!". Then there's this ethereal quasi-genre that ostensibly exists at the intersection of K-On!, Kanon, and Chuunibyou... is that really a "thing" and how does it align with all these other shows you "claimed"?
If we're trying to reduce confusion and avoid prejudice/stereotypes, I can definitely see how it's useful to broaden the definition to avoid being "cornered". But you just end up with the large unwieldy catch-all attribute that applies to a tonne of different content without really actually describing
the content. So, I ask, why bother? If I look through my anime DVD/BD collection, the vast majority have
some sort of connection to the so-called "moe phenomenon". But trying to imply that, because of this, they're all in some sort of "like genre" seems insane to me. The only thing they really have in common is that I like them; "relentlessflame's invokers of moe" is not a genre, I think...
(Though I do thank (and my wallet curses) the anime and bishoujo game industries for continuing to produce content in that "genre".
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