[azul120]

Originally Posted by Yamiken

Before I do some more rebuttal, let me just make this comment: Code Geass is a very interesting show for a number of reasons, one of them being the way in which it deals with what tropers call the First Law of Metafictional Thermodynamics, which states that as more plot elements, such as major characters, are added to a story, the telling of that story must either slow in pace or reduce the focus on each individual element of its plot. Most stories deal with this either by regulating the number of major plot elements they deal with or letting their pace slow. Code Geass, on the other hand, introduces a whole load of plot elements but, rather than pacing, sacrifices focus.

What this means is that there is a lot of conservation of detail in Code Geass. What this in turn means is that, for a show that's not really trying to be deep or meaningful, there is a still a lot that is open to interpretation. But now, the pertinent point: what I'm trying to do here is not convert people to my interpretation of the series. That would be against my principles. What I'm trying to do is defend my interpretation of the series as consistent and reasonably probable. I'm not asking people to subscribe to it. I would, however, like it to be seen as plausible. (Well, that said, it's less that I care about what you all think, and more that I just enjoy the intellectual stimulation of a good debate. :P ) Please keep that in mind for what I say. I'm not saying any of this is the only way of reading the show. What I'm saying is that it's my way and that I think it makes sense.

Now, with that out of the way, back into the fray.



That wouldn't have worked the same way. The thing about Charles and Schneizel, or anyone and anything with any real power in the old order, was that despite the fact that most of the world was suffering from what they stood for, there were still enough people who stood to benefit from their way of doing things, or at the very least thought they did. In Charles' and Schneizel's cases, this was the ethnic Britannians, and more specifically the aristocracy. The whole point of Emperor Lelouch was that everyone, barring a close few like Suzaku and Jeremiah, suffered under him. There was no significant group of people who would harken back to his reign and miss it, and thereby resent the new order which followed it.

Now, at this point, you may make the argument that, by the end, Schneizel probably could have fulfilled that role. I'm not actually entirely ready to disagree with that. But the counter-point I'd raise is this: the Zero Requiem was a plan formulated in the World of C, before Schneizel's true plan and intentions became apparent. However much Lelouch did know his brother's character, I think the full extent of his means and ambitions caught even him by some surprise. At any rate, there was no certainty. Lelouch couldn't afford to rely on Schneizel becoming enough of a demon to demonise in the way he needed to; the only person he could rely on to do that was himself. By the time it became evident that Schneizel could possibly fulfil that role, Lelouch was too committed; there would have been no point in trying to back out then. He had too much blood on his hands already. Better to finish the job himself; nothing to be gained from trying to foist it off onto Schneizel, who could anyway have yet pulled something clever and unexpected out of his sleeves to scupper everything.

At the very least, he had to have known he had more FLEIJAs stockpiled and could do what he wanted.

Besides, betting on humanity focusing their hatred on one thing or person is a sucker's bet. People are too fickle.

If it were just his image that would have needed changing, then I'd agree. But that's not what I was arguing. I was arguing that Lelouch's core, innate personality was incompatible with being a peacetime ruler. Changing one's image is easily enough done, at least for someone clever and resourceful like Lelouch; changing one's temperament, less so, particularly when one of one's most prominent characteristics is the zeal with which one holds to one's ways.

Unless you take into account that it was the hostility of the environment that did it in the first place. Take away said hostility, and he's more likely than not to ease out. He was rather happy and content at Ashford.

Easily enough done with the Geass. Suzaku isn't a total idiot, at least not by the end of the series.

He still is a bit of a fool. Heck, so is Lelouch himself. One of the rules of conflict is that there needs to be some room for something to go wrong, and the Geassverse is just full of 'em.

Could have. But what would the point have been? I reiterate: Lelouch viewed it as a mercy for Euphie to simply die after the massacre had begun. He didn't want to put her through the horror of having to live with being responsible, even to the extent that she was, for such a slaughter. Of course, quite possibly his motives weren't entirely compassionate; if Euphie's dead, he doesn't have to face her and his own responsibility in such a way. But either way, I don't think Lelouch would have had the Geass cancelled even if he'd known he could.

How do we know this? All we know is that there was NO way for the command to be cancelled.

That still seems pretty implausible to me. Possible, maybe, but I think my interpretation is the more likely. Of course, you're welcome to believe what you will.

You're sounding a little patronizing here.

Of course they had a right to protest. I've never tried to say Lelouch didn't do some pretty nasty things as the Demon Emperor. I'm saying that those things were viewed as as horrible as they were because of how terrible they'd have been over a lifetime, which as far as anyone not in the know knew they would have had Lelouch survived. Over a few months, they were still awful, but not as terrible as the alternative.

To put it a slightly different way: what Lelouch managed was to surpass the rate at which his father committed atrocities, not the sum total; also, he spared no one, unlike his father who whatever else he did made life fairly sweet for the ethnic Britannians, and the aristocracy above all. Anyone in-universe (and not in on the plan) evaluating the characters of the two men would conclude that Emperor Lelouch is the worse, even if he didn't have nearly as long to do evil. But what you were trying to do was say that the sum total of what Lelouch did was worse than the sum total of what his father ever managed. I'm saying that that's mistaken. Or at least, in all likelihood mistaken.

Whether or not it was sum total or just the rate was left out of the details. Not only that, so was the matter of it being a better solution than the alternative. Lelouch said NOTHING to that effect. What is pretty safe to say is that it exceeded both the sum total and rate of collateral damage of his rebellion, much of which was unavoidable by contrast. Besides, him leaving behind the reconstruction in the hands of many of the people who had been fooled by Schneizel? Some brain trust.

I refer you to one of my above paragraphs. By the time Lelouch was Geassing Schneizel, he was far too committed. Turning round and saying, "Just kidding everyone, I am a good guy after all. Now look how horrible this bastard is!" wouldn't have rung true enough to get the entire world behind it.

Apparently you haven't been following well enough. I would have preferred him to NEVER go with his plan of alienation to begin with. Not only would he be able to call out Schneizel, he wouldn't have to go up against the BKs all at the same time.

Maybe not, maybe not. Certainly, Ohgi and Villetta are to blame for backing him into a corner. At any rate, there may well have been another way, particularly if I hadn't had his named smeared with the Black Knights. I'm just not convinced it would have been any less bloody, in the long run, than the Zero Requiem.

Here's the thing: how long will the peace last? When it's gone, it's gone, and all the destruction from the ZR will be for naught.

As did Lelouch.

Schneizel was waaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy more loaded though. You cannot equate both cases.

This I do not. This in particular hearkens back to the point I made at the beginning of my post. I'm not saying that Code bearers definitely have the ability to cancel out Geass effects. But nothing you've said there demonstrates that they absolutely can't have it. Ultimately, I'm not saying you have to buy my interpretation; just don't bash it as an invalid product. Besides, there is one thing which suggests it: C.C. restoring Lelouch's memories and Geass at the beginning of R2. An explanation is needed for that. Mine isn't the only one, but it is a possible one, and I happen to find it the most convincing.

Remember the kiss C. C. gave Lelouch during the Black Rebellion? She created a memory imprint to be stored inside C's World.