[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

The main contradiction is that the Destiny Plan was largely presented as an unworkable ideal in Destiny. The more important one in my mind though, is the one that I already brought up: if the Destiny Plan relied on Mars in some way, then Mars should have been mentioned. Again, the point was supposed to be that the Mars system was the inspiration for Durandal, and that it was somehow supposed to prove that it would work.

No it wasn't. The Destiny Plan was presented as a morally bad idea, not an unworkable one.

Durandal's Destiny Plan doesn't depend on Mars in any way, and I'm not sure where you ever got the idea that it did. Mars is relevant to this discussion because it serves as proof that the Destiny Plan does work at what it sets out to do.

But Mars is portrayed as being utterly irrelevant to Durandal's plans. If he didn't care about it, why should we?

Because we've been arguing about whether the Plan even works, and Mars proves that id does.

On the contrary. Destiny is one of the most consistent Gundam shows where it comes to the handling of theme.

Personal opinion, one which I really don't see how you could argue. When the main protagonist is upsurped and goes from hero imagry and music to villainy for no addressed reason, and originally minor characters from the first season upsurp the plot and steal the title of protagonist, you have serious thematic issues.

What? Did you miss the part where they were already at war with PLANT? That's like the U.S. making a detail study of the Greater East Co-Prosperity Sphere before denouncing it as bunk.

... you're actually making an analogy implying that Lacus and co really had no intention of seriously looking at the Destiny Plan since they were already carrying on the war with Durandal?

Well, yes, that is what I've been saying for awhile...

Well, no. It wasn't a first strike,

It was the first shot in the battle without warning. That's a first strike.

and the immediate goal wasn't to stop the fighting (why the heck do you keep bringing that up?); it was to destroy Durandal's military assets - REQUIEM in this case.

The Battle of the Indian Ocean had the Requiem?

Kira intervened to try and stop the fighting by means of having Cagelli get Orb to pull out, which would also leave the EA fleet in the lurch. He was trying to stop the battle so Orb forces wouldn't fight.

These would be the responsibility of Mwu's superiors.

Not only is that bull crap, Mwu was the superior. He was in charge of the operations, the kids, and he fought in them himself.

No idea where you get the idea that people aren't responsible for their own actions.

Why would this be any more of a war crime than the fire-bombing of Tokyo?

Who in the world said that fire-bombing Tokyo wouldn't be considered a war crime now?

The point is that Rau was already dead, so he could hardly be considered a character in Destiny. Although, thinking back on it, Rau was also about as far from being an idealist as you can get.

I didn't call him a character in Destiny. I pointed out that Destiny said that Rau had conflicting beliefs and actions.

When the people who own the franchise also declare that the only canonical events are the ones in the anime? Try pulling the other one .

Actually, the retcons in the post-series special editions and movies take presidence.

Side material isn't as strong as the anime, but it holds true as well. The only time side material is invalidated is when it is opposed by cannon, which isn't the case here. Side material is used by the franchise owners to flesh out the story settings, tell other tales that couldn't be included in the anime, and give technical/mecha information. These are understood to be true unless corrected later. If it didn't, then there would be no reason for side material in the first place, because it would be as acceptable as fanfics. But it isn't.

So, pulling 'common marketing sense' I guess?

But Lacus isn't an idealist at all. The naivete of her faction is thus a bit of a questionable statement since they tend to act for rather different reasons.

Yes, she is. She's also a politician who will compromise them to achieve them, but she's consistently followed her personal beliefs and ideals of what's best throughout the series.

Moreover, there really isn't much hipocrisy in fighting for a better peace - that's pretty much the fundamental principle behind military philosophy.

Congratulations: you just learned that lots of military philosophy is weak and only as strong as you want to believe it to.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that Kira wasn't fully justified in taking out Minerva's gun. It was his fellow countrymen that it was pointed at after all.

First, he isn't a soldier anymore; civilians aren't allowed to go out and hunt down enemy forces. Second, it's not that I don't think it can't be justified, I just recognize it as being a justification, which are innately biased for one side or position or another. Third, by arguing that he's defending his countrymen in a war, you're validating ZAFT's position of treating the ArchAngel like an enemy, which most people don't seem to accept as anything but villainy on ZAFT's part.