AnimeSuki Forum - View Single Post - To Aru Kagaku no Railgun - Character Discussion

kwantum0 · 2010-03-13, 04:27

wow, amazing tread: love the spechula
if you two, Alhazred and CrazyPerson, don't mind me being third spoke, I'd love to join your conversation.

(I have read over your posts, and have a general gist of what each person said, and where you are coming from, but being the lazy person i am, i probably won't quote anything. Please correct me if I misinterpret or am wrong. Since both of you seem to be familiar with physics I will make assumptions about your knowledge. And yeah, i made this account with the sole purpose of posting in this epic tread.)

First of let me say that we are making assumptions about the world the anime inhabits that might necessarily not be true. There could be some exotic form of physics and unfamiliar laws which affect reality. We are, in fact speculating about the precise physical mechanisms which control a fictional world, designed for the purpose of entertainment (i guess you call this part of the entertainment experience too). However, i do believe we are entailed to these assumption as no meaningful conversation could arise without using the laws and logic familiar to us.

It is also apparent that the universe that Uiharu inhabits is similar to our own, as it is created by individuals who live in our reality, and seemingly want to emulate an enhanced version of our reality through the creative medium. A corollary of this, is that the director or creative designer in charge of implementing this realism might have untrue assumptions about how the world works, or might not have understood a physical phenomenon to the point at which they can successfully implement it in the story. This is readily evident in most anime, and especially so when it deals with unfamiliar environments like space. (constant thrust does not equal constant velocity!) Uiharu's world, does have its plot holes, both physically and human aesthetically, however overall it is still a close enough representation of our own world to capture our imaginations.

I agree with Alhazred when he says computation is an important aspect of an ability user's power. It makes sense when you consider the fact that information is inseparable from its physical reality. Most users can only use their powers by thinking about it, and the repeated referenced Personal Reality, seems to suggest that the inner subjective reality of an individual modeled in the brain, seems to have an effect on the objective world. It also follows that users who understand their ability better would be stronger than those who did not. The exact physical mechanism between a user's mental computation and the physical manifestation of an ability i cannot say. They haven't given us nearly enough information, but if I had to guess, the AIM field generated by the computation of the mental system somehow causes changes to occur on a metaphysical level (probably defined by their understanding of physics) which then influence their actual world.

This is all theoretical and shouldn't really be taken to seriously, but an interesting conclusion i can draw from it is that ability users define their own power. I think it was stated previously that a power works based not on an absolute mechanism, but on how a user believe their power to work. If we consider that most users start of powerless, or with very little ability, it becomes easy to imagine a reinforcing process where a young esper develops a power based on what he sees/imagines his power doing. Makes sense when you consider that what dictates certain users to certain powers seems arbitrary. In reality all abilities are probably really manifestations of a few phenomena, or more likely a single one. People just interpret it differently based on how they experience it. It also explains why certain people can't use powers, as they do not have the ability to imagine themselves using a power which defies physical convention (they are to grounded in reality) as well as the genetic basis for powers, as minds are in a large part designed by genes. Although i think this is already understood.

Getting to the topic of this tread, if we think about the specific mechanism involved, i think uiharu's ability is exactly what she says it is: to be able to keep physical systems at a constant temperature. It doesn't matter whether this is achieved through keeping Entropy constant, or through isolate a system (yes, they are different, will explain), or through heating/cooling the system herself. Why? Because that's the limits to the understanding of her ability. There is no specific physical mechanism because it's unobserved. As time passes, her power will evolve with her perception of it. So if she realizes she is really just a pyro, she will be able to create fireballs and such. However, that's an extreme and unlikely example. Because the human mind is so rooted in reality, it is much more likely that she'll realize she can increase or decrease temperatures as well, or invent a reasoning, such as zero entropic change for her ability which becomes reality as she gets used to it.

Some of these of these physical mechanisms are quite fun to speculate however. For example, an isolated system would mean that any system Uiharu affected with her ability, would become essentially unobservable (such as the taiyaki in the box) as any interaction by photons or detectable forces would change the arrangement of the system. This means that Uiharu could make things invisible (unobservable is a better word - think event horizon), or rather nonexistent in the physical reality of her universe. This doesn't really seem that plausible, as she would have interpreted her ability as being different to what she thinks it is. Also if she is using her ability to overclock her computer when she does her thing, how can she receive information from other networks unless they were also isolated in the same system as her computer. Unlikely due to her low level.

Another one thats interesting, and probably more applicable if she chose, was constant entropy. I know CrazyPerson doesn't really like this idea but i think your thinking of entropy in the wrong way. Rather than no exchange of heat between the box and the environment, what if Uiharu was able to control probability instead. Remember the second law of thermodynamics is only a suggestion not a rule. It's more likely for a system to go from a state of high entropy into a state of lower one, but there is no law at the fundamental level which says it must. Thus Uiharu might be able to control some metavalue of entropic probability of particles that interact with the system in question. For example all the kinetic molecular energy lost to heat by the box, the same arbitrary amount of kinetic energy is added back into the box. This would inherently be different from her intentionally heating the system, as the physical phenomena would be unimportant, random, and uncontrollable, and only lead to the desired effect of maintaining constant entropy.

Of course you could explain all the ability through some manipulation of probabilities and metavalues (basically information entropy), and thats the point since all the powers have a common source.

A consequence of the idea that all the powers are from the same source, and the understanding of a power leads to more precise definitions of the boundaries under which a power can operate means that people who do not contemplate their powers at all, can have much broader abilities. This requires that information processing, remain discrete, by using abstractions outside thinking. Knowledge of how to manipulate the powers could be passed down without the actual need to understand the physical system that dictates the power. Yes, i am talking about the magic. This completely makes sense when you consider that magic in the anime requires absolute ignorance about the process, and that espers, who use a different mental model about the physical phenomenon that causes the power when compared to magicians, can't use magic (vise-versa).

I am getting of topic, but if we return to the problem of the mechanism that controls Uiharu's power, my general thesis is that there is no definite mechanism as the user herself hasn't defined one. But if i had to chose the most probable; some sort of entropic control of physical (and informational) systems.

-Kwantum0

PS. Is it just me or are some or do some of the powers seems FTL? If so why are there no time travel mechanism archs?

PPS. Accelerator probably can only change the vectors of objects based on definite reference frames he can comprehend. The angular momentum of the earth is OK (somehow...), but the differences in velocities between the galactic core and everyday things is to large to meaningfully understand.

2010-03-13, 04:27	Link #212
kwantum0 Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2010	wow, amazing tread: love the spechula if you two, Alhazred and CrazyPerson, don't mind me being third spoke, I'd love to join your conversation. (I have read over your posts, and have a general gist of what each person said, and where you are coming from, but being the lazy person i am, i probably won't quote anything. Please correct me if I misinterpret or am wrong. Since both of you seem to be familiar with physics I will make assumptions about your knowledge. And yeah, i made this account with the sole purpose of posting in this epic tread.) First of let me say that we are making assumptions about the world the anime inhabits that might necessarily not be true. There could be some exotic form of physics and unfamiliar laws which affect reality. We are, in fact speculating about the precise physical mechanisms which control a fictional world, designed for the purpose of entertainment (i guess you call this part of the entertainment experience too). However, i do believe we are entailed to these assumption as no meaningful conversation could arise without using the laws and logic familiar to us. It is also apparent that the universe that Uiharu inhabits is similar to our own, as it is created by individuals who live in our reality, and seemingly want to emulate an enhanced version of our reality through the creative medium. A corollary of this, is that the director or creative designer in charge of implementing this realism might have untrue assumptions about how the world works, or might not have understood a physical phenomenon to the point at which they can successfully implement it in the story. This is readily evident in most anime, and especially so when it deals with unfamiliar environments like space. (constant thrust does not equal constant velocity!) Uiharu's world, does have its plot holes, both physically and human aesthetically, however overall it is still a close enough representation of our own world to capture our imaginations. I agree with Alhazred when he says computation is an important aspect of an ability user's power. It makes sense when you consider the fact that information is inseparable from its physical reality. Most users can only use their powers by thinking about it, and the repeated referenced Personal Reality, seems to suggest that the inner subjective reality of an individual modeled in the brain, seems to have an effect on the objective world. It also follows that users who understand their ability better would be stronger than those who did not. The exact physical mechanism between a user's mental computation and the physical manifestation of an ability i cannot say. They haven't given us nearly enough information, but if I had to guess, the AIM field generated by the computation of the mental system somehow causes changes to occur on a metaphysical level (probably defined by their understanding of physics) which then influence their actual world. This is all theoretical and shouldn't really be taken to seriously, but an interesting conclusion i can draw from it is that ability users define their own power. I think it was stated previously that a power works based not on an absolute mechanism, but on how a user believe their power to work. If we consider that most users start of powerless, or with very little ability, it becomes easy to imagine a reinforcing process where a young esper develops a power based on what he sees/imagines his power doing. Makes sense when you consider that what dictates certain users to certain powers seems arbitrary. In reality all abilities are probably really manifestations of a few phenomena, or more likely a single one. People just interpret it differently based on how they experience it. It also explains why certain people can't use powers, as they do not have the ability to imagine themselves using a power which defies physical convention (they are to grounded in reality) as well as the genetic basis for powers, as minds are in a large part designed by genes. Although i think this is already understood. Getting to the topic of this tread, if we think about the specific mechanism involved, i think uiharu's ability is exactly what she says it is: to be able to keep physical systems at a constant temperature. It doesn't matter whether this is achieved through keeping Entropy constant, or through isolate a system (yes, they are different, will explain), or through heating/cooling the system herself. Why? Because that's the limits to the understanding of her ability. There is no specific physical mechanism because it's unobserved. As time passes, her power will evolve with her perception of it. So if she realizes she is really just a pyro, she will be able to create fireballs and such. However, that's an extreme and unlikely example. Because the human mind is so rooted in reality, it is much more likely that she'll realize she can increase or decrease temperatures as well, or invent a reasoning, such as zero entropic change for her ability which becomes reality as she gets used to it. Some of these of these physical mechanisms are quite fun to speculate however. For example, an isolated system would mean that any system Uiharu affected with her ability, would become essentially unobservable (such as the taiyaki in the box) as any interaction by photons or detectable forces would change the arrangement of the system. This means that Uiharu could make things invisible (unobservable is a better word - think event horizon), or rather nonexistent in the physical reality of her universe. This doesn't really seem that plausible, as she would have interpreted her ability as being different to what she thinks it is. Also if she is using her ability to overclock her computer when she does her thing, how can she receive information from other networks unless they were also isolated in the same system as her computer. Unlikely due to her low level. Another one thats interesting, and probably more applicable if she chose, was constant entropy. I know CrazyPerson doesn't really like this idea but i think your thinking of entropy in the wrong way. Rather than no exchange of heat between the box and the environment, what if Uiharu was able to control probability instead. Remember the second law of thermodynamics is only a suggestion not a rule. It's more likely for a system to go from a state of high entropy into a state of lower one, but there is no law at the fundamental level which says it must. Thus Uiharu might be able to control some metavalue of entropic probability of particles that interact with the system in question. For example all the kinetic molecular energy lost to heat by the box, the same arbitrary amount of kinetic energy is added back into the box. This would inherently be different from her intentionally heating the system, as the physical phenomena would be unimportant, random, and uncontrollable, and only lead to the desired effect of maintaining constant entropy. Of course you could explain all the ability through some manipulation of probabilities and metavalues (basically information entropy), and thats the point since all the powers have a common source. A consequence of the idea that all the powers are from the same source, and the understanding of a power leads to more precise definitions of the boundaries under which a power can operate means that people who do not contemplate their powers at all, can have much broader abilities. This requires that information processing, remain discrete, by using abstractions outside thinking. Knowledge of how to manipulate the powers could be passed down without the actual need to understand the physical system that dictates the power. Yes, i am talking about the magic. This completely makes sense when you consider that magic in the anime requires absolute ignorance about the process, and that espers, who use a different mental model about the physical phenomenon that causes the power when compared to magicians, can't use magic (vise-versa). I am getting of topic, but if we return to the problem of the mechanism that controls Uiharu's power, my general thesis is that there is no definite mechanism as the user herself hasn't defined one. But if i had to chose the most probable; some sort of entropic control of physical (and informational) systems. -Kwantum0 PS. Is it just me or are some or do some of the powers seems FTL? If so why are there no time travel mechanism archs? PPS. Accelerator probably can only change the vectors of objects based on definite reference frames he can comprehend. The angular momentum of the earth is OK (somehow...), but the differences in velocities between the galactic core and everyday things is to large to meaningfully understand.