[Wolfenstein]

Originally Posted by Clarste

In the real world, sometimes people have faith and then lose. In the real world people bet everything on a dream and then fail. Medaka and Kumagawa are clearly exaggerations, but there are winners and losers in real life. To deny that is to live in a dream. Do you seriously think that every "loser" in the real world just isn't trying hard enough?

I never said faith will always net you a win. You're misunderstanding. I even said, explicitly, that chance is a factor in our universe.

But faith in yourself is an important trait, even if you're failing. It's a vital part of the very human soul. Even if you fail, you have to have faith that you will one day try again and you will win.

But this is for out world.

I Medaka Box, like I stated, fate is a tangible thing. Just look at Unzen always rolling sixes. He's favored, and that's what Zenkichi is getting to. That's what Nishio is getting to. Win without help, do things yourself, have faith in youtself.

Sure, sometimes randomness will make you lose, but that's by no means something to disregard your own specialty for, or give-up.

And that's what Devil Style enhance by destroying Medaka Box's biased form of luck.

Originally Posted by Clarste

Sorry, mangareader is blocked for me. Can you tell me the chapters and pages you're referring to?

I'm on a hurry now, but one is Ajimu approaching Zenkichi straight after the treasure hunt arc, and the other is her explanation of what a Zero is.

Originally Posted by Clarste

Yes, he won once. After Ajimu set everything up to overcome the impossible. Medaka made herself lose. Zenkichi beat the middle schoolers in speechcraft, but Medaka had to have shot herself in the foot to get 2%. As I said, the point there wasn't that Zenkichi became awesome because of his hard work, it was that Medaka stopped being awesome so she no longer got a free pass.

Uh, you mean after Ajimu created Zenkichi's personal skill for him, right? Cause that's the whole reason Medaka was even able to lose. And she lost because, without God intervening, her rhetoric just wasn't as good as Zenkichi's. She advocated helping others all the time, Zenkichi advocated faith in yourself and your individuality. He won.

And that still dosen't mean you'll always win or lose in an impartial universe, but the importance of Zenkichi understanding the feelings of humans and normals is undeniable.

Originally Posted by Clarste

Again, gambling. Some people literally gamble, others "make investments", but in the end everyone's playing the odds. You think you'll succeed where other people didn't, just because. Not because you put more work in than them, but just because. Some people do put more work in, but that just gives you better odds. You still irrationally think you'll succeed.

When have I ever said that?

You seem to be throughly confusing faith with conviction. Faith in yourself is not an absolute certainty of win, nor have I ever said that.

You're either mis-interpreting or making a red-herring here.

Originally Posted by Clarste

I think you misread my sentence. The doubt wasn't the emphasis, the "accurately" was. Most people aren't that good at anything. We all doubt sometimes, sure, but it doesn't always pay off in the end.

And yet sometimes it does. Not always, but, again, you're confusing faith with conviction. I told you Zenkichi won't always succeed, but he has faith that he can succeed without help, and that's the dilemma we were talking about in the first place. Zenkichi understands that people need that faith to be human, and having the concept of "destiny" got in the way of that.

Originally Posted by Clarste

Actually... I guess you have a decent point here. About why they didn't vote for Medaka. It really depends on whether you believe Ajimu or Maguro's explanation though. Both seem reasonable.

Both seem to tell the same story with different words, honestly.

Originally Posted by Clarste

I said you're a Plus. You are Medaka from the beginning of the series, except in slightly different words. She said "no one is special" and you're saying "everyone is special" but since it's all relative there's no difference. You think everyone can be great if they simply want to hard enough, and that effort will always be rewarded (in real life). That's the attitude of a Plus. A Minus knows that effort is never rewarded, and a normal person experiences that effort is sometimes rewarded, but not always.

Yeah, definitely. I think people's uniqueness and individuality make them special. Not one person alive is the same, but we do have the some of the same concerns, which is what normality is.

And, yet again, you seem to be confused on that subject. I told you that randomness is a part of life, so effort won't always be rewarded.

But the faith that it might is fundamental to the human condition. Because we all try to do better, to forgive. And if you lose faith in that, you're just like a Kumagawa whose given-up. Which is why destiny and fate sucks. Because it's a non-arbitrary form of luck that rules Medaka Box. Or ruled, if you believe in Devil Style.

Originally Posted by Clarste

Free-will is not the same as self-determination. Even a slave in chains has free will, they just have external constraints on their behavior. They can rebel, but must face the possibility of punishment. Free will is not a "get out of jail free" card, and never has been. And if you go into philosophy, you'll even see a lot of people trying to fit free will into a completely deterministic framework. That's not a contradiction.

And the faith in rebellion, even with the possibility of punishment, is what Zenkichi is advocating with his faith in free-will.

Because in Medaka Box, that slave might've been doomed from the first second the universe was born, so how can we, the readers, who know that we are not bound by a deterministic fate, not see the human in Zenkichi when he understands that fate is an impedement to that very sense you are alluding to?

Because if you don't believe that you might succeed, you'll never try or keep trying. Medaka was giving people an easy way out - an I'll help you pass - and Zenkichi is advocating doing things by your own will. Having faith that you can sometimes suceed, and keep trying even if you fail.

Originally Posted by Clarste

No, the point of the series is that while Medaka is a Perfect Plus and other people aren't, they can still be happy. And Medaka has always had control of her fate, she just didn't know what to do with it. And, well, she's still a Perfect Plus. She effortlessly succeeds at anything she tries to do, and only semi-fails when she either meets someone "even more Plus" or intentionally holds back. Even when she lost the election, she got something good out of it. Just as Kumagawa can't imagine true victory, Medaka can't imagine true loss. She's never known loss, and she still hasn't.

She has lost.

That stopped being the point of the series after Zenkichi defeated her. A true defeat isn't something that has to crush you beyond repair, the fact that she learned something from being disproven dosen't lessen her defeat in the least.

Originally Posted by Clarste

Zenkichi's never been destined to fail. He's not Kumagawa after all. He just keeps trying to do things he can't do, because he's trying to keep up with someone who can do them. He wants to play the hero alongside Medaka, to save her even, but that's just not what he's allowed to do. And he never does. He can win her heart though, although to be honest that's not very difficult. Overflowing Love and all that.

If you're saying that he dosen't always succeed in being by her side, than that's true.

But if you're saying he can NEVER do that, than that's something Medaka and Zenkichi have already debunked.

He will try, because he has faith. He won't always win, but he's not giving up. By your "Minus" mentality, it seems as though he should just give-up. And that's just destructive towards human nature. We're resilient creatures, we try to do better.

He'll keep trying until he realizes that his behaviour is destructive towards himself, but he is acting in accord to his will, and not giving up until you want to give up is one of the virtue of humans, even if you know you're outmatched, even if you fail sometimes.

Originally Posted by Clarste

You can surely be awesome because you're yourself, but that doesn't mean that you deserve to succeed or that you will. Accepting who you are and your limitations is important here. At the end of the clock tower section of the Successor arc, Zenkichi failed and got pissed at what Medaka said to him. At the end of the Jet Black bride Zenkichi failed and didn't get pissed when Medaka said the exact same thing to him. What changed? Acceptance. He accepted his imperfect self. He accepted that hard work doesn't always pay off.

Again, red herring. What's important is not winning, it's the will to try. That's what Zenkichi is talking about. That's why he creates Devil Style to counter fate and that's why he has faith that people can do things on their own accord.

And, again, who is saying that hard work always pays off? You're the one saying that here. I'm not saying that.

I'm saying that the faith in trying to do better, to do things yourselves in Medaka Box's case is what's humanly important here. And is why Zenkichi understands what normality is. Because he's failed so much, yet has the perseverance to keep faith that he can eventually succeed.

And that's important for us humans.

~~~

Endscape, truly sorry, but I really only have the disposition to seriously debate one person at a time. I'll get back onto your stuff when I can, really! I just have certain constraints and such.