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Originally Posted by Felyndiira
Oh, no, not at all. I am enjoying this discussion as well  . |
Oh, that's good to know.
Just tell me if you're already bored with this line of discussion - we can switch topics anytime. Its a pity, but I think we're already running out of points of contention for Toki vs. Kasumi. In fact, I agree with most of what you've posted. I just can't agree on this one point.
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Originally Posted by Felyndiira
And plus, she can still complete her hands when she's not actively stopping Kasumi's tsumo. Kasumi's weakness with honor tiles also factors into account here: if other players (like Toki herself) start going for honor tile pair wins, it will make it difficult for her to discard honors in later discards. Having a single, say, chun in your hand is enough to mess up an otherwise flush draw, while Toki does not have the same weakness with any discard. Saki, for instance, was able to seal Kasumi's hands by making her afraid to deal honors into a potential rinshan.
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This is where we disagree mostly. I believe that even if Toki would be able to shut Kasumi most of the time, Kasumi would be able to gain the advantage or even up with Toki due to Kasumi's massive wins. I calculated that Toki would need to win twice or even thrice to offset any wins that Kasumi will get. Unless you're saying that Toki would be able to perfectly shut Kasumi like she did with Kuro. And even with the honor weakness, Kasumi's one suit is still a pretty good defensive ability that I believe that it won't happen.
For Toki to shut Kasumi she needs to have this:
One, Toki needs to have a partner or someone willing to cooperate with her to discard the tile she needs to call and this must be done at the right time or else it was for naught. Toki can't call whenever she wants/needs to after all.
Two, Toki or Kasumi's opponent would need to have at least many pairs of honor tiles in her hand to strike at Kasumi and I don't think Toki has any draw bonus for honor tiles. In fact, the very first thing you discard when you are building your hand is usually honor tiles. If Toki insist on making an honor tile pon, she will be slowing her hand down too.
As you can see with this two points, the whole set-up is highly situational. Thus, I don't think that it is possible for Toki to be able to shut Kasumi down perfectly or even most of the time. Perhaps instead of using the Koromo vs Kana analogy Sera vs Ako would be better (the quarterly match not the semifinal one).
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Originally Posted by Felyndiira
I don't think we'll ever be able to come to a conclusion on this one. I will agree that if the winning tile gets pushed back instead of reset, then Kasumi would have an advantage. I personally think that it's more plausible that the tile gets re-randomized, but since this is a paradox, nothing short of word of Ritz would be able to give any concrete conclusion to this =p.
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Yeah, I agree that this is pretty much impossible to resolve which is a pity considering that it would be quite a deciding factor on the Toki vs. Kasumi.
Judging from the direction of the manga, we won't even be getting a word of god on the matter. For the foreseeable future Toki vs. Kasumi won't happen. There is a high chance that Toki won't be in the individual match due to stamina problems. Kasumi is also not participating in the individual match. So yeah.
Anyway since one of our main point is a big blank question mark. And looking at that stats we made, it seems that Kasumi and Toki ended up more or less even. Can we put them in the same power tier and just mark that any battle between the two can go both way depending on the situation?