[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by MonkeyDude

I'm not saying that she's completely useless as she does serve her purpose of defeating opponents with a rather staggering gap in power, but all she will accomplish "contributing" to the opponents Touma typically end up fighting would be at best getting somewhat injured (correct me if I'm wrong, but all she's experienced so far are minor cuts and bruises right?), at worst death since she's facing opponents far beyond the scope of her abilities.

There you go again with the underestimating. I'm not sure why you think she'd be brought to near death against all the bad guys; sure she wouldn't be steamrolling anybody, but "far beyond the scope of her abilities" is pushing it.
Anyway, you're still missing my point; you're looking at it from an out-of-series view. I'm talking about it being how Mikoto wouldn't just leave him alone when he goes off to fight. So it's forced how Kamachi keeps coming up with forced reasons for keeping her out when she's around to help.

The Amakusa is around 50 strong and with Itsuwa at the center challenged Acqua and still lost. Even with the support of Kanzaki they still lost. How the hell do you expect Mikoto to "contribute" here? The only logical conclusion here is that at best she'll become a liability and at worst...well someone will have to become a meat shield for her because she is someone to be protected (go go plot armor).

Now you're taking my point a bit too straight there. By "contribute," I don't mean to make a difference so much as to try to contribute. Even if Mikoto knew that she wouldn't be able to defeat Acqua, she would still go and try to at least make a difference that could help Touma win; that's just her kind of character. Touma would do the same, even if he didn't have Imagine Breaker. Mikoto wouldn't be any more of a liability than everybody else that was getting their butts kicked though, so from your point of view, why did any of them bother to help Touma at all if they were just going to get beaten down by Acqua? Same reason that Mikoto would; to try and help. To make an effort instead of sitting on their hands and doing nothing.

You keep bringing up Sherry and yeah you're right she could have contributed in that fight. I'm not exactly sure how that fight will end up given that Mikoto doesn't fight to kill and Sherry can pretty much endlessly reconstruct Ellis. Will including Mikoto really contribute anything to the plot if she were involved is the question at hand. We are at an impasse concerning this question so let's just say we agree to disagree.

Touma doesn't fight to kill either; he could bring a nice knife and stab people in the face instead of Falcon Punch them. So Mikoto not killing is irrelevant, and she has plenty of ways to incapacitate without killing, mainly just electrocute them.
Plenty of characters in anime, not even just in Index, have jumped in to help with a fight despite having no contribution to the fight. Heck, in US comics like Teen Titans, the Justice League would show up just to do nothing more than eat a combined superhero weakness grenade (flashbang, kryponite, etc.) while Deathstroke makes his escape. (and I speak of a specific issue; it was a whle ago, but yes this did happen )
It's more important to stay consitant in this case. Mikoto wouldn't have made the plot any different, but she wouldn't have hurt it either.

And you really need to look up the definition of a plot hole. There was no such thing because while convenient, it was explained in a way that no such plot holes exist. So let's go over some simple vocabulary shall we? Convenient does not equal plot hole okay?

Yes I know what it means:
"A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic."
And actually, it is in a way a result of plot holes (i.e. inconsistencies) that Mikoto was excluded from the Sherry fight; Kuroko's inconsistency of priorities in getting people out of danger (Hyouka was in far more danger than Mikoto, as far as they all knew), and Sphinx, who is always content to stay around Index in her shirt, suddenly jumps out and runs away at just the right time. Convenient and inconsistent.

So I can't even consider valid points you've made without it invalidating my argument? What's the point of even discussing this in the first place when one side doesn't even listen to valid points made by the other?

Umm, huh? I've been directly addressing your points. I'm not sure how I can respond directly to your points without listening to them......you just misunderstood my point which led to you making a statement that agreed with me.

I'm not saying DP is a reason why Mikoto "wouldn't be in a fight" but I'm saying it's why she would serve no purpose even if she was involved in the fight. DP would just instantly KO her out of the fight since she would probably display some form of enmity against Vento if she witnesses a scene of say Vento attacking that building with innocent civilians in it. So DP kicks in and we just wasted pages just to see Mikoto get knocked out and become a liability to Touma.

And if this was anybody besides mikoto, say Kaori, Kamachi would have undoubtedly "wasted pages just to see her become a liability." You're looking at this far too much from an out-of-series point of view.
To come at this from another approach, say for example, two partners who are always side-by-side in a show. One of them is going to fight a bad guy while the other is incapacitated and helpless to do anything; should the writers violate the consistency of their partnership and split them up for the scene just to avoid "wasting time" with the useless character? The only difference here is that Mikoto and Touma aren't actually partners, but she'd still come to help him against Vento in a heartbeat.
And just so you know, the above scenario happens all the time even between non-partners in a show; lots of shounen animes for example. One guy gets mowed down right away and is there bleeding and forced to watch or just lay unconscious while the other guy struggles to beat the bad guy, and sometimes even the second guy gets mowed down too. from you're point of view, it's a waste of screentime. Yet it's still done. (and no not just in shounen anime) So why is that so wrong here? Not that I want to see Mikoto lying in a pool of her own blood mind you, but Ido want to see consistency for Mikoto's character, not see her get sidelined by forced reasoning.
Although strictly speaking, it might actually help Mikoto develop as a character to be nearly killed; a near-death experience is defintely a good to obtain perspective.

You are just reiterating my statement of how I mentioned that if she could get around DP, then yes she can actually fight Vento to a degree. But since DP exists, it's a moot point so no real reason to dwell on it.

Refer to above. (don't want to type all that again )

Powerful opponents that are still weaker than her even in her weakened state (except Mugino, but wouldn't you say that it's rather convenient that she can form a shield to deflect her attacks?)...The only true opponent she has faced that was beyond her league is Accelerator and guess what happened? I can also say that the Railgun series has a way of over-glorifying her battle capabilities because hey...she's the damn protagonist. You can't really expect the protagonist to lose right? And hey she sure has a hard time fighting her opponents...with barely getting injured and all.

Frenda was hardly weak; just because officially she's a lower level doesn't make her a pushover. She used her abilities combined with tools and strategies to become a formidable opponent.
I can't really say anything to her barely being injured, especially since those were my own criticisms of the series , but then again that was mostly the anime; she actually took some lickings during the fight with Mugino, and some close calls against Frenda. Either way it doesn't change that she used top-notch tactics in conjunction with her skills to beat two formidable opponents in a row while already being weakened.
As for Accelerator, well, it's Accelerator. Honestly, he;s not so much powerful as much as hax. Just a different kind of hax from Divine Punishment and such. He's number 1 because his power has the ability to make him physically (not mentally, i.e. DP) invinceable. The only thing besides magic that can have a chance in hell of beating him is Imagine Breaker, only because it cancels out Accelerator's power. It doesn't matter how powerful you are when your power is just deflected, not overpowered. Mikoto could have the power to blow up a city block in one shot and with ease; Accelerator would just deflect everything, the blast, the debris, even the wind.

Please read Volume 16 in its entirety again. Actually no forget it. Reading through v16 again won't destroy your illusion of how Mikoto would be more useful than the Amakusa. Read this again...the entire Amakusa organization with their Supreme Pontiff. If you think that Mikoto would be able to contribute any more than the organization THAT ACTUALLY FOUGHT AND DEFEATED ACQUA...then not even IB can destroy that illusion of yours. Don't forget that Touma didn't do much of anything besides blocking Acqua's final attack.

I forgive you for not getting what I actually meant since you of course didn't read this post before making that post , but I'll say it again; like all those other characters who were swept aside by Acqua, it isn't so much that she contribute to the fight so much as she be consistent with her character and try to contribute. Just like all those others.

And I submit that you far overestimate Mikoto. At least use that line when you were referring to Sherry or hell even Vento. But Acqua? And it's the novel where Mikoto actually got some great development...not exactly sure what you want anymore really.

Refer to above; and what I want is for consistency with Mikoto's character, i.e. not see her letting the guy who saved her and her sisters' lives, let alone being the man she loves, go off to fight and not lift a finger to help him regardless of what he says.

Again you need to look up what plot hole means since you love to use it incorrectly. Mikoto isn't exactly causing any problems to AC so why would Kuroko fight her? This means that no sense of duty for Judgment would supersede her desire to protect her Onee-sama. Add in the fact that she's not exactly too keen on the idea of leaving "that brute" and her Onee-sama alone together even for a brief period of time and hey she's easily candidate #1 of 2 for that teleport slot.

Plot hole = (generally) inconsistency with plot/story events; in this case inconsistency with Kuroko handling her role as a member of Judgement in getting the more safe Level 5 out of harm's way before the helpless civilian Hyouka.
First off, what does it matter why they would fight? The fact of the matter is Kuroko specifically said that she would fight Mikoto, right to her.
Second I guess you haven't read the manga, at least not that much, because that's where this line was said.

*sigh* I don't even know why I'm bothering replying to this since you aren't even considering OUR points at all. You have at least 4 guys rebutting you and you are still rather steadfast in your beliefs. I'm not exactly sure whether I should commend you or call you delusional, but I wanna go back to lurking so please don't even bother replying to my 'rant' so I won't be compelled to make a reply.

There's....really no need to start being offensive. I listen to your points and I debate them. That's what happens in a debate, which is what's going on here. Of course I don't agree with you and am debating with you.
Just because four guys are debating against me means I'm wrong? Furthermore, how do you know there aren't 10 guys here who agree with me but just don't want to bother taking part? That's....rather ignorant. In fact, I think we can safey say that there are a lot more than that who agree with me across the Internet; just because they're not here doesn't make me wrong in what I think or believe.

Hell I want to see more Itsuwa, but you don't see me raising a storm as to how and why she deserves more screen time. Though actually I'm wanting to see more of Index since her character and importance recently just clicked in my head and it all suddenly makes sense now...anyway, /lurks

What I "raised" was a comment in the episode 19 thread that people disagreed with me on. I find no fault in that, but I do find it insulting when somebody starts mentioning words like "delusional" just because I don't agree with them. You don't see me saying people are delusional for being steadfast in what they think. Should I just conform to the majority then?
Most of all though, it looks like the part where you got really frustrated with me was the part where you misread my point (again), that point being that I wouldn't expect Mikoto to be able to do anything against Acqua, but to be consistent with her own character and try, just like everybody else Acqua defeated.

Originally Posted by I_am_Kami

You say plothole we say a part of the plot. Really we are going back and forth on this argument that really is no big deal. Your "plotholes" are really just very minor thing compared to big plot holes that are later on filled up in this series.

It's a plot hole because it's inconsistent with Kuroko being a responsible a member of Judgement, which happens to be the definition of "plot hole." You get the people in most danger out first; it's common sense, no matter what you say. This point I can't concede on. And of course I'm focusing on these plot holes and not the other ones; those plot holes don't have anything to do with my stance that Mikoto shoud get some more action time when she appears.