[musouka]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Pure semantics. You and me know that had Hina not aggressively pushed Hayate ahead - against her own interests - he'd never have gone along in time. You made it sound like her involvement was merely by accepting Hayate's decision. It wasn't.

No, I'm not saying what she did wasn't important, I'm just saying she didn't "make the decision for him" like you claimed. She gave him advice. He took her up on it. The decision was still in his hands.

Originally Posted by Mentar

I don't think though that it's Hata's intention to terminally remove Hina from the list of Hayate's romantic interests (and if it was, it would be all the more tragic).

I don't think Hina should be swept from the field entirely either, but it was Hina's decision to completely back down. We should have a better idea of where things stand at the end of the arc.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Sorry, but this is REALLY absurd. Self-absorption would imply that Hina would be fixated on herself, and interpreting whatever happens around her in terms of how it matters to _her_, and adjusting her actions accordingly.

Uh, that's exactly what she does. Whenever she worries about something, it is inevitably about how that will affect other people's views of her, in addition to the problems of other people. What you see as altruism, I see as a certain form of (understandable) cowardice. Even her line about "tears underneath the mask" is ultimately self-serving in addition to being painful and sad.

Originally Posted by Mentar

If anything, this is one of those things which fuel my not-yet-overcome dislike of _Athena_.

Athena isn't altruistic, and I would never claim she was. What she does have is a certain honesty about herself that Hina lacks. Athena makes sense to me. When she thinks that she causes Hayate pain, she distances herself from him and tries to stay out of his life. Isn't that what any good person would do if they honestly thought they would hurt the person they love? When she thinks about how she could take advantage of the situation by stealing the stone and making Hayate lose his job, she's also overcome with disgust at herself.

She has her moments of weakness, but genuinely puts Hayate's happiness over her own. I don't see how that can be denied.

Originally Posted by Mentar

The scenes you're obviously referring to are those where Hina tries to come to terms with her own feelings. To understand what's making her tick. This isn't self-absorption, it's self-reflection and self-awareness. Especially since she is able to admit to herself negative results like "I'm jealous".

No, those aren't the scenes I'm referring to. I'm referring to not even allowing Hayate to finish answering the question she asked before deciding it's a good opening when anyone could see he's sort of hesitantly mulling over what she said, in the confession chapter. You can't read him to that extent, Hina? I'm referring to the birthday chapter where it never even occurs to her to maybe be worried about Hayate being late--no, he's not there because he's a jerk, because he doesn't like her, ect, ect. I'm referring to worrying more about what Ayumu will think of her "betrayal" as opposed to the actual "betraying" itself. There are a lot more chapters where Hina worries more about how people will see her or what people think of her as opposed to the people themselves.

Again, that's normal. Sometimes I find that part of Hina really tiresome, but it's not an unnatural attribute to have.

Originally Posted by Mentar

You're forgetting that it was HIM who insisted to invite HER, not vice versa. It would be absurd to cancel a date requested by Hayate on the grounds of "You know, let's not do this date you requested from me, because you actually might dislike having to be with me in the first place".

No, Hayate wanted to thank her, and was given the suggestion of a super-expensive restaurant. Personally, I would feel uncomfortable allowing the person I loved put himself in potentially dire financial straits knowing that he has money problems. If I thought he was depressed over the dinner with me, especially knowing he wanted to thank me in some way, I would suggest a more cost effective alternative and maybe cap it off with a walk on the beach. Of course, I'm much older than Hina is, to be fair.

Originally Posted by Mentar

And if you have any experience with romance yourself, you know that when you're about to confess love to someone, baring your soul, is a moment when you're emotionionally sensitive and vulnerable to the extreme. That's no sign of self-absorption either.

It is if all you can think about, when you see the person you love looking distant and depressed, is how he must be reacting to you. If you are convinced that he is distant and depressed, but still think this is a good time to confess your feelings, then Hayate isn't the only one without a sense of delicacy.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Hina's altruism - the constant willingness to act to help the interests of others, even to the degree of consciously hurting her own - is what defines her as a character.

What are all the times Ayumu has helped Hina with Hayate, chopped liver? I know you like her and all, but she's not a saint, Mentar. It's okay for her to be flawed.

Originally Posted by Mentar

No, that's not all. He's terribly flustered when he's asked about Hina, and his reaction has consistently been along the lines of "because she's way too good for me, she would never look at me". Or, to point to another scene when both of them are touching hands while reaching to the coffee pot "it was an uncontrollable attraction"

He's terribly flustered because half the time he thinks she doesn't even like him. Again. Point blank. Outright rejection of the idea.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Hina is the only girl he can't touch without eliciting a strong reaction (and vice versa). For example, after saving Hina from falling off the cliff after the beachball tournament, they obviously both remained in a fairly compromising position for quite a while - and they knew that it was compromising, see their reactions after being addressed by Aika.

He had the same exact reaction with Maria when they were trapped in the sauna together, and when they went on that mock date. He's had that reaction in regards to Ayumu. Hina is not special in this regard.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Doesn't matter at all. If for some reason I thought you're sick and I'd think that giving you all my money would save your life, and consequently do so, then it _would_ be a sacrifice. Even if - unknown to me - the money wouldn't make a difference.

No, you can only sacrifice things you actually have. But I'm just as sick of debating a joke scene as you probably are.

Originally Posted by Mentar

We'll get to this bridge _now_, whether you want it or not. If Hata seriously tries to organize the story by making Athena Hayate's secret lover while having Hayate return to butler unknowing Nagi, I'm going to feel sick. And drop the manga.

No one said anything about Athena and Hayate dating. There can be a myriad of reasons why they wouldn't want to be "secret lovers" even while having mutual feelings. (For one thing, Hayate still doesn't have enough money to support a woman for the rest of her life. >_>)

Originally Posted by Mentar

And finally I'd like Athena to lose her "I, I, I" mode and help Nagi deal with the aftermath of destroying the stone.

I'm really going to need you to explain this insistance on Athena as being completely self-centered, because I don't see it.

Originally Posted by Mentar

If Hata plans to end the show by hiding Hayate/Athena from Nagi, developing the Royal Garden sidestory with only select characters and then miraculously breaking the news to Nagi when she's "ready" for it in the future, then this might please the A-tan shippers.

I don't think anyone has suggested that, least of all me. The information we're getting is involving mysterious figures like Hayate's brother, which will probably shine some light on aspects of the plot. We will probably get at least some sort of temporary resolution to the Athena/Hayate plot, but that's all. I think part of your problem is that you're viewing this entire thing as a love drama. I think the series is actually about family first and foremost.