@willx: I'm pretty sure we both don't really understand where we are coming from.
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Originally Posted by willx
Your argument for why it's a problem can be summarily reduced to: 1) Those Gov'ts and Orgs that manage Islam have ulterior motives (Religious States or Official Orgs)
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So you intellectually understand. Now I want you to be "aware" of those factoids above and how they relate to what you are saying. If we clearly analyse 1) we can see that it has nothing to do with religion at all. They could be managing a secular government and they would desire the same result. Their desires are not based on actual religious concerns.
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I tried to make a distinction between 'religion and organized religion'. What I was trying to discuss isn't merely the religion of Islam that you get on paper and in texts. I was trying to talk about how the religion of Islam
operates in some countries. I was trying to expand on the greater depth that you brought up by, basically, talking about how certain governments and many Muslims clerics steer the masses around by capitalizing on their devout faith in their religion. Does this make sense?
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Originally Posted by willx
2) Koran condones violence against non-believers
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And 2) is related to Islam but is the same in other religions (we're not talking about progress over time here, we're talking about what's written in the documents)
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Yes, you have commands for violence found in the Jewish religious texts and in the Bible (mostly in the Old Testament); it is written in their documents, but it is very important to make note of the progress. Jews and Christians today (for the most part) don't abide to the commands for violence. Today, many Muslims do abide to the commands for violence found in the Qu'ran (and it isn't just violence towards nonbelievers). It may be either that they are in support of the/some of the commands for violence or they carry them out. But in the Muslim world, there are many who abide to the commands for violence. If today, they for the most part did not abide to those things, I wouldn't really care about the Qu'ran verses that endorsed violence. And again, I know their religion isn't always the root cause or prime cause for these things, but it certainly is a factor.
This here is important to note: In some of these countries, with the masses of society, most of the people in the masses are very devout to their religion and their religion is incredibly influential to them and how they live their lives, and so many of them try to abide to the Qu'ran as much as they can, so it really matters when the Qu'ran endorses violence many times throughout its pages. It really impacts the societies and cultures of said countries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by willx
3) Population in these countries are under-educated and under-informed
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and 3) also clearly has nothing to do with religion.
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I brought that up in the second to last paragraph in that post. You can reread it here:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...ostcount=23675
You misunderstood me. I didn't mean for you to infer that from what I wrote. I wasn't saying those things have anything to do with Islam or any religion. I know those things have nothing to do with Islam. I brought them up as I was trying to illustrate some points.
You expanded on things in this post:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...9965&page=1184
All I was trying to do by bringing up those things was try to incorporate the points you made (that there is great depth to the issue) to some of the points I was trying to make in that paragraph.
I hope that clears at least some of those things up. Please don't pull your hair out.
