[Haak]

Spoiler for @ Znozzy:

Originally Posted by Znozzy

Athrun didnt want Zaft to escalate things with Orb because he kinda, you know, had all his friends there, including his fiancé and uh, he had been living there since the end of the last war.

What friends did he have at Orb? How did you figure Lacus was in Orb? And I thought Athrun had been living in Heliopolis which he already managed to blow up.

They didnt take a hardline stance, even Yuna had issues with them joining up with the EA, and his family brokered the deal. Orb allied up with the EA for survival and bad storywriting, lol.

When I said they took a hardline stance, I meant with ZAFT and EA when they were fighting in Episode 25. For a small nation they sure had a lot of guts telling ZAFT to take a hike.

Lets see Orbs three options:

Ally up with the EA or be destroyed
Don't ally up with the EA and be destroyed
Ally up with Zaft and be Destroyed

Honestly, its pretty logical why they made the deal and signed the Alliance, even if it went against everything the country stood for.

Once again, as you mentioned earlier, when did Orb deter Zaft?

Are you simply overanalyzing the entire situation and drawing your own wild conclusions based on your own opionions regarding this entire thing? you keep posting without any actual facts to support your claims except your own wild imagination regarding the show.

I've already been through this in the other debate with monster. If you take issue with anything I said and think it's "wild speculation" then show me how. I don't really want to bring up everything again since as you plainly see, I already have a lot on my plate right now but to summarise, the reason I thought Orb's alliance with the EA was contrived, isn't because it's illogical per se but because it's out of character.

Spoiler for @ monster:

Originally Posted by monster

The basis is what the show tells us: That Kira would not share the technology.

Where is your basis for saying that Kira would share once it's peacetime?

Because the original basis isn't there anymore and after what Orb has been through, they might really need it.

Uh, what? In both SEED and Destiny, the EA has launched at least 4 nuclear attacks. Clearly the EA is not worried about the consequence.

The first time, EA attacked Junius Seven and didn't think ZAFT could respond with N-Jammer (Bloody Valentine Incident)
The second time EA attacked they didn't realise ZAFT could respond with GENESIS (Battle of Boaz and Second Battle of Jachin Due)
The third time EA attacked ZAFT they still didn't think ZAFT could respond with the Neutron Stampeder.

This doesn't suggest the actions of someone who doesn't care about the consequences. The only thing it suggests is that LOGOS is full of retards.

The EA attacked after ZAFT used GENESIS for the first time, destroying a significant portion of the attacking fleet. Then ZAFT fired GENESIS a second time at the lunar base, and the EA attacked again.

I don't know where you're getting this. From what I remember, the EA withdrew their fight in space after the failed Nuclear attack and the next time we heard of anything, Yzak or someone else was telling Ahrun that they EA and ZAFT were basically having a staring contest ever since.

That's what you said:

Yes, that it what i said. But nowhere did I say they thought the entire invasion was worth it in the end. The original decision to invade can't be worth it when the main thing you end up accomplishing is preventing a problem caused by the invasion itself. That makes no sense.

The point is, they still attacked.

No.

The point is, there's no reason for EA to believe they got anything out of Orb that was worth invading them in the first place. The only reason they carried on was because the costs were already accrued and there was nothing stopping them from gaining whatever benefit they could after the Orb soldiers left. This does not mean they thought the benefits suddenly outweighed the costs.

I'll stop mentioning it when you acknowledge that the EA is willing and able to attack anybody that doesn't obey them.

No, because it doesn't.

You should stop mentioning it because it's not relevant.

I've already told you plenty of times but it seems you can't so if you continue to bring this up again without making it relevant to the point, I'm just going to ignore you. I don't see any reason why i should respond to it after all. The fact is that it simply isn't relevant.

It proves to Orb that being neutral doesn't prevent them from being a target.

And? I don't think Orb was ever under any illusion that it would in the first place, hence why they put so much focus into developing their military. That's not the issue at all.

You're kidding me, right? That was ONE ship commanded by Athrun and they didn't have any order to attack Orb.

Like I said, Athrun specifically shot down the argument to escalate things.

Yes, Athrun, did that. If Yzak were in command, they would've called Orb out on their lie.

But Yzak wasn't in command and Orb trusted that ZAFT didn't have idiots in command. Even Yzak acknowledged it wouldn't have been a good idea. In any case Orb doesn't know about Yzak's imbecile remarks so they're free to think they successfully deterred ZAFT.

Uh, if they didn't think they could fool ZAFT, they would've just officially claimed that Orb has given sanctuary to Djibril.

But they knew they couldn't stop ZAFT from attacking if they confirmed Djibril's presence in Orb, so they tried to lie.

It was a PR stunt dude.

When Yuna was confronted with this by one of his men, he was asked what he expected since everyone knew it was an obvious lie. Yuna responded by drawing parallel to the time when they lied about Archangel in Episode 25 of SEED as another PR stunt.

Then why is it so hard for you to accept that Orb would want to be in a more advantageous position rather than having to stand alone again?

We've already been through this and for you it came down to whether Orb could think it could deter the EA which we are debating right now.

Correction: Uzumi was brave enough to do that. In case you have forgotten, Uzumi AND his supporters in the government are gone.

Okay, but the original point was that Orb had already deterred ZAFT once. If it was successful then the fact that Uzumi is gone doesn't necessarily mean there has to be a difference.