View Single Post
Old 2013-05-27, 08:58   Link #4284
Cherry_Lover
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates View Post
Anyway, there are plenty of hints on things hiding under the surface, so smart and observant readers should be able to pick up various things. Sakura takes somewhat of a backseat on Fate and UBW, but at the same time, there are various hints about her and her personality that go beyond just being the girl next door, its why I liked her in the first place. Like her relationship with Rin and the foreshadowings of it are shown, her relationship with Shirou and Taiga, and honestly, if you thought she was a regular girl, you were kind of delusional, there were hints and things everywhere.

For example:

Spoiler:


I dunno, I just find that people don't pay enough attention to the subtle things put into this story. It is supposed to be enjoyed slowly and digested like a novel, because that is what it is. And there is a lot to digest.
Yeah, there's a bunch of things that are hinting at Sakura and Rin being connected in some manner. For example, in UBW when Rin is spying on Sakura, and asks about what it's like to be adopted.

Also, are you sure Sakura is mentioned as one of the victims of the bloodfort? That seems odd to me, given that she's Rider's real master and, also, a powerful magus.

Quote:
@Thryfe

Spoiler:
Well, actually we don't know if he's dead, although I would agree it's not likely. Just because there's a war in ten years it doesn't mean Kotomine couldn't have managed to kill him.

Also, why are you using spoiler-tags, this is a thread for free spoilering?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates View Post
I just think he might not be a visual novel person, his feelings on Sakura aside, he ignored all my points on interconnectivity between routes and made the same asanine assertion of Fate just being tedious, when there was pertinent information everywhere. It is a novel, not an anime, so visual novels are probably not for him.
Well, you're not exactly the best person ever at explaining things, or at living with people who don't do exactly what you tell them or have their own opinions that don't agree with yours, so....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
So is more my feeling that you could answer all the questions in one route and still use other versions to tell different stories. Not just spread all elements in three unbalance parts that together make a whole of: three incomplete connected stories. It might work for some, but to me just doesn’t click right.
How could you? If every single character was alive to the end of every route there wouldn't be a story, and if you killed the same characters off in every route then the story would just be the same.

And, also, doing it that way would remove all possible suspense. Whilst I don't like how Sakura is entirely ignored in UBW and Fate, to the point that we genuinely do not have a clue what her fate might be, if her relationship with Rin and mastership of Rider was covered in the other two routes then HF would have no suspense. Further, I'm not sure how we could cover all that in a way that didn't end up looking ridiculous in the way the Sakura elements of the anime did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thryfe View Post
Ya I found out that I had parts wrong and what Kotomine says in Japanese would still translate to him saying "The old Makiri has already retired". I just figured that since Kotomine used the word impossible in the sentence before hand that it would be a euphemism for death.

I just thought it odd how the dang guy spent 500 years trying to get the grail and weather he could use Sakura or not just sits by and lets it get destroyed in Fate. Or the possibility of Kotomine getting it. The only scenario I could think of was since Kotomine decided Zouken was a threat that needed to be killed back in Zero, he would get rid of the guy with the baptism rite or with Gilamesh and Lancer. Just to keep him from interfering in the 5th war. I hadn't considered the dismantling, wasn't the Greater Grail wiped out in Fate though?
It's not destroyed, at least not in Fate or UBW. In the absense of any further actions, the Grail Wars would continue, although Nasu has confirmed it will be dismantled in around 10 years time.

Also, killing Zouken without also killing Sakura is quite difficult, and I very much doubt Kotomine would be overly bothered about killing Sakura if it made his life easier. So, the fact that she's still alive and shows no signs of trauma from having Zouken removed from her implies he's probably not dead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Maybe you are right. I am just saying that, to me, doesn’t quite work. Because it ends making some characters look like they wasted my time with their small appearances that ended being irrelevant to the story. Because what explain them is relevant in another story, so why bother to have them here now? I am questioning the execution.
Not every single character in a story can be relevant, sometimes you just need cannon fodder, or background characters just to make the world look real. The only difference here is that the background characters get some importance of their own in different routes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thryfe View Post
ah, I've only completed the visual novel so I haven't looked into Fate/zero in depth. Though I know what generally happened.
So all in all it seems Zouken sticks around until the dismantling is decided and he probably steps in to stop that. Nasu mentions that Sakura doesn't become the black grail in any route, so where would she fit in the Dismantling scenario lol?
Well, that's not clear. It's likely to end with her either being rescued or dead, though, if she's not already.

Quote:
I just remembered, the very last time we hear of him is in HF after Sakura pulls him out and crushes his main body. He is on the brink of disappearing and the only thing that's keeping him around is his desire for the thing he tried to obtain all his life is a right in front of him. Right before seeing Illya reminds him of justeaze. The grail was at its most corrupt at that point and based off that scene he clearly wanted it right?
Zouken couldn't care less if the Grail is corrupt, but he does care how easy it is to win and whether it will do what he wants it to. The Grail in the fifth war is "imperfect" due to the odd nature of the war, so he sees it as unlikely that it will do what he desires. However, in HF the set-up is so good for him (due to Sakura's power) that he decides to go for it anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
But that makes me wonder. If Zouken wanted the Grail so bad why he doesn’t do anything in Fate or UBW if he is alive? That is one of my problems with the routes. They are different and yet we are told all the elements in each route are present in all the routes so why some characters decide to do nothing in some routes while in others they decide to act is, at least to me, odd.
Because the chance of him winning without Sakura being willing to fight is too low for him to risk his own life by getting involved directly, and the Grail is also imperfect due to various factors (e.g. Caster summoning a fake servant). He knows there will be other, better, opportunities, so he decides not to do anything to endanger himself.

And, he's not exactly doing nothing, as such, he's still got Shinji fighting on his behalf. He just isn't doing anything that might put him in direct danger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates View Post
Zouken didn't do anything because he couldn't find any way to control Sakura. In HF, he finds a great weakness for her and exploits it, and that is what causes the accidental contract to be established with AM. Otherwise, it doesn't happen and he waits until the next war, because she refuses to fight.
He can't really control her in HF either, as such. But, the difference in HF is that he can manipulate her into doing what he wants her to do.

Quote:
He was going to sit out the Fourth war too, but Kariya provided him entertainment.
He does sit out the Fourth War. He provides Kariya as a master who has a tiny chance of winning but doesn't endanger him, just like he provides Shinji in Fate and UBW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
And that feels more exciting. Fate/Stay Night knows how to be really good when it wants, I am not saying otherwise, is just that it also takes its sweet time with scenes that, to be fair, really add nothing. Just saying, at times it can get doll. I read those parts but some are unnecessary long and drag my attention away from the great conflict that is taking place. You don’t keep the excitement and feeling of this epic war between mages with ancient beings as Servants when you have stuff like: what is for dinner? Is better a Japanese breakfast or an American breakfast? Or, I think the way that guy walks is really cool. I can live without those things.
That's called "characterisation"....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Is not misunderstanding. Ok, I will admit I am not a fan of VN but I can find good stuff here. My point is that, at times, the things we break in to in the middle of the action bits are pointless and boring. Character development and foreshadowing is good, but there is ways to let that out. Really is odd to go from a serious life or death situation of action and tension just to cut to “Who will make dinner?” and have a comic relief scene over an ancient king being angry at her bad food. Keep the tone or balance a little better the elements. FSN doesn’t always get it right.
I think your statement about not liking VNs is very revealing....

That is how the genre works, and I see no problem with it. It is just a way to develop the characters and plot, and those scenes are genuinely important in many cases.

Quote:
I know with Saber, but she was British and she says the food wasn’t good… is not even a hard connection to make. Is like the Black Ranger being black and the Yellow Ranger being Asian, it just comes on its own.
What?

For one thing, she's ancient British, which has no real connection to the modern world. Also, so what if it's "obvious", that doesn't mean she won't say it.

A good story is not going to only say things for your direct benefit, the characters exist to be characters, not solely to explain the plot to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Because the explanation are just a way to give away what, in the end, I can’t really put myself behind as story telling detail. I never say it can’t be explain, I am saying isn’t kind of stellar. And there is no point to say it can’t work in a more open story when we already have an example where a Fate series does give more room to all Master/Servant teams. FSN doesn’t do it for any reasons they might had and they create something good, just not flawed.
Yes, and the anime is widely slated by FSN fans for doing a horribly botched job of fitting in the Sakura arc. She shows up, her relationship to Rin is revealed and then it is literally just forgotten so they can go back to the original VN ending.

Quote:
The discussion is over if this can affect the routes quality and I think it does. Because you can tell me yeah, Zouken wanted to play bingo during the other routes or he take vacations on Hawaii or was waiting for things to happen on its own, etc. that isn’t the point. He didn’t appear and might as well seem he was just not in there at all. You can’t really go away with the “little hints” if in the end the character was so irrelevant to the previous routes we can pretend he was dead on those. Point being, some characters are kind of waste in other routes. I think it does matter and I can’t really just take it, you can. So yes, we agree to disagree there.
The thing is, Zouken doesn't want to be seen. He is someone who would rather the world know as little about him as possible, especially people who would violently object to his method of living and treatment of Sakura.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Pretty sure he was mentioned in both Fate and UBW routes during those slice of life scenes. I believe he called the Emiya estate to have Sakura come home.
Yep, in at least one route he calls to ask Sakura to come home, and I think in the other they call him at some point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thryfe View Post
He should already know how to use Shirou without him going to the house right? Kotomine says the crest worm in Sakura is normally used for reconnaissance, he can see what shes doing and in that first day Sakura sorta flirts with Shirou and Shirou says itll be a problem if Fuji-nee hears her talk like that. Zouken SHOULD know this I think. Also in the Fate route Sakura also sees the mark on Shirou's hand, its bleeding rather than just a bruise and her face pales when she sees that as well. So whats confusing me is that the same events happen albeit a bit differently but should have the same result, if that's the case Zouken had no reason not to act in Fate as well. So I guess it comes down to it in Fate that tiny spark does open for whatever reason since they most definitely had the same conversation. While in HF it does, so its sort of like a what IF scenario then? Is that right? idk its just silly to me that such a tiiiiiny difference means he doesn't act in Fate, he even said himself, he has all the pieces he needs, why would he give up on Sakura after a single conversation. He been waiting 500 years. I guess its just my opinion and im being stubborn lol.
Sakura doesn't "flirt" with Shirou, though, she very deliberately avoids any such thing. She teases him, perhaps, but not in a way that makes it obvious to Zouken that she is in love with him.

Also, it's not clear what exactly the Crest Worm can do. It can monitor Sakura's location, certainly, but I'm not sure Zouken can hear or see things she hears or sees through it. He probably can through the soul worm he has inside her, but only if he's specifically listening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thryfe View Post
Well see your absolutely right on all of that. Here is what gets me though, you said he didn't know he was a participant yet. He already declares Sakura as perfect he just needs to motivate her. Even though Shirou doesn't go to the house in Fate Zouken is still going to try something if Sakura is perfect, why would he quit after a single conversation if shes perfect. Let's say he just lets it go right, at some point in time he is going to figure out Shirou is a master, he says it himself "If the conditions aren't perfect, I should restrict myself to just watching" If he is watching he WILL find out Shirou is a master, he is going to put two and two together. I hate to say it but the guy isn't stupid, the moment he figures it out he is going to try and pull the same crap as in HF.
By that point it's too late, I think. Shinji already has Rider and he's already accepted that Sakura won't fight. He just doesn't have the leverage any more.
__________________
Come to forums.darksidemoon.net, a new Type-Moon forum.
Cherry_Lover is offline   Reply With Quote