[Raisa]

Originally Posted by ElizLestrad

Oh PLEASE....

Its historical fact that Marsailles wasnt sent to Afrika because he was good. He was sent their for being a worthless insubordinate drunkard playboy who missed most of his early operations due to him having hangovers. Even the JG52 wanted him gone.

Many Experten did not get off to good starts and Hartmann was no exception. You seem to have read the Wikipedia article on him so you should have seen

"Hartmann flew his first combat mission on 14 October 1942 as Roßmann's wingman. When they encountered 10 enemy aircraft below, Hartmann, obsessed by the idea of scoring his first kill, opened full throttle and became separated from Roßmann. He engaged an enemy fighter, but failed to score any hits and nearly collided with it instead. He then ran for cover in low cloud, and his mission subsequently ended with a crash landing after his aircraft ran out of fuel. Hartmann had violated almost every rule of air-to-air combat, and von Bonin sentenced him to three days of working with the ground crew. Twenty-two days later, Hartmann claimed his first kill, an Ilyushin Il-2 of the 7th Guards Ground Attack Aviation Regiment, but, by the end of 1942, he had added only one more kill to his tally."

Some more on that period:

"Krupinski: I assigned Hartmann to serve as my wingman many times, and along with Gerd Barkhorn, he was given his first opportunity for a victory when we met a single Soviet fighter. Erich had already been reprimanded earlier for breaking formation and chasing a fighter, getting shot up and crashing his plane with nothing to show for it. [Prior to Krupinski's assignment to command 7th Staffel, JG.52, Hartmann had, in fact, taken part in a team effort in downing an Ilyushin Il-2 Shturmovik on November 5, 1942, which was credited to him as his first victory as a means of encouraging the new man in the squadron. As he followed his already burning victim down, the Shturmovik exploded, damaging Hartmann's Me-109G and forcing him to make a belly landing."

Here's something else:

"Alfred Grislawski treated the newcomer in the ordinary harsh manner of a member of the working class. He was constantly picking on Erich Hartmann, shouting at him, insulting him and nagging on him for all Hartmann’s beginner’s mistakes. Grislawski never excused Hartmann for any mistake. Whenever Hartmann made a mistake in the air during the training passes with Grislawski, his headphones would explode in a harsh scream from his mentor: “Do you really want to die that quick? Don’t you think the Russians can fly? How many times have I told you – don’t do it like that!” – With the scornful addition: “Little boy…”

“Little boy” – “Bubi” – it was Alfred Grislawski who invented this later so famous nickname for Erich Hartmann."

Don't just compare Hartmann's entire career with Marseille's start.

Originally Posted by ElizLestrad

As for "beating the Lufbery Circle", thats hardly a difinitive reason to say someones the best. The Lufberys been around since WWI, and the likelyhood that Marsailles was the first one to do it is highly unlikely, especially when you had aces like the Red Baron.

Yes, was not a very good argument.

Originally Posted by ElizLestrad

Hartmann on the other hand:

"Unlike Hans-Joachim Marseille, who was a marksman and expert in the art of deflection shooting, Hartmann was a master of stalk-and-ambush tactics. By his own account, he was convinced that 80% of the pilots he downed did not even realize what hit them. He relied on the powerful engine of his Bf-109 for high-power sweeps and quick approaches, occasionally diving through entire enemy formations to take advantage of the confusion that followed in order to disengage."

"His favourite method of attack was to hold fire until extremely close (20 m (66 ft) or less), then unleash a short burst at point-blank range—a technique he learned while flying as wingman of his former commander, Walter Krupinski, who favoured this approach. This technique, as opposed to long-range shooting, allowed him to:[9][35]

-reveal his position only at the last possible moment
-compensate for the low muzzle velocity of the slower firing 30 mm MK 108 -equipping some of the later Bf 109 models (though most of his victories were claimed with Messerschmitts equipped with the high-velocity MG 151 cannon)
-place his shots accurately with minimum waste of ammunition
-prevent the adversary from taking evasive actions"

"However, firing at close range ran the risk of having to fly through the debris of a damaged or exploding aircraft, thereby damaging his own fighter in the process (much of the damage Hartmann sustained in combat was caused by collision with flying debris). If it was dangerous to dog-fight further he would break off and content himself with one victory. His careful approach was described by himself by the line "See – Decide – Attack – Break": observe the enemy, decide how to proceed with the attack, make the attack, and then disengage to re-evaluate the situation."

Did you know that Krupinski was a terrible gunner? That's why he had to do that.

Originally Posted by ElizLestrad

"Erich Hartmann flew 1,404 combat missions during World War II, resulting in 825 engagements,[51] and was never shot down.

He was never wounded and never bailed out due to damage inflicted by enemy pilots. His kill tally included some 200 various single-engined Soviet-built fighters, more than 80 US-built P-39s, 15 Il-2 ground attack aircraft, and 10 twin-engined medium bombers."

Let's do some numbers:

Hartmann had 352 kills in 1404 combat sorties giving a .2507 kill/sortie ratio.
Marseille had 158 kills in 382 combat sorties giving a .4136 kill/sortie ratio.

This isn't an absolute way to gauge pilot skill but it gives an idea of something...

Originally Posted by ElizLestrad

on the other hand

"However, on 23 April, Marseille himself was shot down during his third sortie of that day by Sous-Lieutenant James Denis, a Free French pilot with No. 73 Squadron RAF, "James Denis shot down Marseille again on 21 May 1941" By the same guy no less...now thats sad.

I don't particularly find it humiliating to be shot down by the same man twice but that's a matter of opinion. As a note, Denis was also an ace, with 9 kills.

Originally Posted by ElizLestrad

If the enemy doesnt know your there until you appear out of nowhere from behind at such a range that they couldnt even react...thats not easy. And the fact that Hartmann never got himself killed flying through the exploding planes he just shot with his suicidally insane tactics is a testiment to his skill as a pilot. Not saying he never had to land a plane to to damage, but he never had to do so because of enemy fire. Even when he finally crashed and was captured by the russians, it was because of him flying into debris, not because someone got a lucky shot and brought him down.

Yes Hartmann was a great pilot. So was Marseille. You believe Hartmann was better. Hartmann, Galland, Rall, and I think Marseille was better.

An incident involving Marseille:

"In 11 minutes of combat, fighting practically alone against a large enemy formation, he shot down six victims, five of them in the first six minutes. He was the only attacker in the battle, and not a single round was fired at him. The surviving Tomahawk pilots said in their debriefing that they were attacked "by a numerically superior German formation which made one formation attack at them, shot down six of their friends, and disengaged". In a post-war analysis of this dogfight these pilots testified the same."

As well as the fact that Marseille, at his best, used an average of 15 rounds to down each enemy aircraft.

Originally Posted by ElizLestrad

Point is, theres a reason Hartmann earned the title "The Ace of Aces" from historians and Marsailles didnt. Simply put Hartmann is and, judging by current scores, will forever be the most successful pilot in the history of combat aviation. Hell modern day pilots havnt even been able to get into the same solar system as these guys. Most Korean and Vietnam pilots scores arn't even into the 20s...which is pretty sad actually...

Marsailles may have been good, but statistically Hartmann was better and in the end, that's what matters in the pages of history... results.

The definition of Ace of Aces means the pilot who has scored the most kills. The reason why Marseille doesn't hold the title is probably because he died in a accident on Sept. 30, 1942. By the way, do you remember when Hartmann scored his first kill? And, most pilots from later wars don't have the same scale of kills because the wars were of a much smaller scale. Also during World War II, the Allies tended to use their best pilots in the training of newer pilots leading to individual Allied scores being very low in comparison. But then again, the Allies won the war...

Originally Posted by ElizLestrad

And, if you think about it, Hartmann also beats Marsailles in making a total fool out of oneself....observe:

Marsailles: Drunkard playboy

vs

Hartmann: In March 1944, Erich Hartmann, Gerhard Barkhorn, Walter Krupinski and Johannes Wiese were summoned to Adolf Hitler's Berghof in Berchtesgaden. Barkhorn was to be honoured with the Swords, while Hartmann, Krupinski and Wiese were to receive the Oak Leaves to the Knight's Cross. On the train, all four of them got drunk on cognac and champagne. Supporting each other and unable to stand, they arrived at Berchtesgaden. Major Nicolaus von Below, Hitler's Luftwaffe adjutant, was shocked. After some sobering up, Hartmann was still intoxicated. Hartmann took a German officer hat from a stand and put it on, but it was too large. Von Below became upset, told Hartmann it was Hitler's and ordered him to put it back.

I still hold that Hartmann is damn lucky he wasnt taken out to the toolshed and shot. I somehow doubt that if it had been Hitler who had walked in that he would have been so forgiving. I mean, genocidal maniacs dont mess around...

Let's expand on "drunkard playboy":

"The Captain, with champagne dinners, French brandy and Havana cigars, treated enemy airmen that fell into the Germans' hands royally. Marseille was a throwback to the gallant times of WWI when his idol, the Red Baron Manfred von Richtofen, believed that the foe should be treated with chivalry. In fact General Theo Osterkamp, 32 victory ace of WWI who knew Richtofen, said, "Only one man was as good at gunnery as Richtofen—Marseille."

Hans had a luxurious apartment in Benghazi, Libya. It was stocked with gourmet foods and liquor. It is said that his female friends included an Italian general's wife, a German field marshal's daughter, an Egyptian princess and an English newspaperwoman who had defected."

Here's another incident involving Marseille:

"The Knight's Cross with oak leaves, swords and diamonds holder once had a conversation with field Marshal Erwin Rommel that can only be described as one that enraged the Wehrmacht icon.

Marseille contested the antiquated idea that the Luftwaffe be tied to the army's control. The Soviets operated that way and destroyed the power of their vast fleets of planes by keeping them stationed above some ground forces while they were really needed a short distance away.

Marseille likened the control of aircraft by battalion commanders to "…a bunch of children tugging on the strings of puppets."

Rommel countered with, "My commanders take their orders from me—I am the coordinator!"

Marseille persisted saying, "Wouldn't it be silly for Montgomery to give orders to the Royal Navy? The air arm must work in concert with the ground forces, not be fragmented….""

The point is that Marseille was wonderful as well as Hartmann and that you should look down on neither. Thank you for reading.