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Old 2009-03-17, 20:03   Link #46
panzerfan
Name means little...
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Join Date: Dec 2004
They can nevertheless try. By the way, I think I will copypasta my own supporting apologetics here to Kotomi's hunches.

*Disclaimer: by no mean am I trying to say that you just witnessed Quantum Mechanics the Animation. Don't blame me for the death of nekomata or whatnot since this is all for the sake of realism (TM) some are demanding.

My own leaning is towards the sum of all paths as well, but the origin of the world that has ended and the end of that period becomes the sore thumb in my mind. I suppose that here's where putting physics and anime together == god kills catgirl axiom applies, but if one can chronologically fit the world that has ended as a branch to the time constraint beginning from the reference point of the meeting over the bottom of the hill, perhaps a much less magical conclusion can be drawn to appease those that demand realism out of the "catch episode 22" question with all pun intended. This becomes an anomaly due also to potential causality problem with where this should go, and we actually even have an information paradox to contend with given that an explanation of where did all that energy and matter involved with the history to 'world that has ended' go when it literally collapsed?

I guess to really go wild, my own guess is that Hawking's own way out of his own information paradox to form the theoretical basis of what happened I suppose with that world and how it correlates to the 'majority' of the paths. This is where the whole topic goes completely beyond me however. His idea was on the line that either the world that has ended is literally another self-contained alternate universe where information of Ushio and Tomoya just bleed into (preserving informational enthalpy overall) and I guess Tomoya and Ushio got hurled into some sort of a black hole(?) with the observer audience getting the Tomoya POV instead of a 3rd person view of the whole spectacle... *Lost at this point, mostly as the part where it seems that universe comes out of black hole singularities...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5
Tomoya's consciousness into 2 halves so it can simultaneously participate in 2 worlds.
This also adds to the headache due to consideration of Quantum Entanglement... is Tomoya and Robot Tomoya really communicating with each other or programmed to interact the same way or... EPR paradox, where looking at Tomoya is enough to predict all of what robot Tomoya is going to do? I don't quite comprehend how many world circumvents this thought experiment actually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5
For me it's much more logical to believe that dimensional shifting is more a possibility than splitting a mind, when one considers the fact that time and space is a measurable phenomena as compared to the idea of consciousness which is already so abstract as it is.
This issue would go away I guess if a strong explanation can be given of how that we have locality preserved through the view of how we look at Tomoya's global state relative to the end of the world local state. Consciousness would open a can of worm and it would lead everyone off on a massive tangent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
If we were to strictly fit IW into some chronological relationship with everything else, even as a separate universe, it would most likely fall as a world postdating the death of Ushio. IIRC, IW girl mentioned before the IW got nuked into oblivion that the two of them existed as 2 different people prior to the IW, and spoke in a past tense. This suggests to me that the IW was the result of Ushio's death and possibly Tomoya's own, the exception perhaps being Key's choice to run it in parallel. Otherwise, evidence points to the IW being an eventual result of the bad end.

Bear in mind of course that this for me is a more likely scenario than the IW occurring after meeting on the hill because while it would require Tomoya to jump dimensions, it follows a more linear series of events. From a strict order:

Ushio's death -> Illusionary World -> Time Loop -> Hill meeting

rather than:

Hill meeting -> Clannad Events parallel to IW -> Time Loop

For the sole reason that if both IW and Clannad ran in parallel, it's assuming that you split Tomoya's consciousness into 2 halves so it can simultaneously participate in 2 worlds. This sort of idea if closely related to the "limited souls" problem that if the universe had a limited number of souls, how exactly can there be an infinite number of people, unless you split a soul into a infinitely smaller number of souls to have more people. THAT'S a metaphysical problem I'd rather not touch.

And looking on the bright side of things, at least the contradiction didn't cause the Clannadverse to asplode on itself.



Not necessarily because, for me anyway, I don't really believe that the consciousness is split. For me it was real Tomoya before Robot Tomoya, shifting towards the IW after Ushio dies. For me it's much more logical to believe that dimensional shifting is more a possibility than splitting a mind, when one considers the fact that time and space is a measurable phenomena as compared to the idea of consciousness which is already so abstract as it is.





Key managed to follow the idea of Many World Interpretation under the Hawking interpretation in the anime adoption, and that is the basis of my argument. Essentially, with the magical properties of quantum mechanics, this strange set of parallel 'paths' consisting of one central universe and a separate universe in the form of the 'world that has died' aren't totally dues ex machina. I think that this concept of fighting fire with fire can be off-putting to some people, but here be what I think a plausible defense based in human understanding of the physical world... maybe upsetting and offputing but someone has to be the heretic here.

*I think that a better explanation of this conjecture is that Clannad Afterstory follows Hawking's own doctoral thesis on how parallel universes work. This links the idea of the singularity in black hole to the creation of parallel universes and how that even with the main universe itself, our final outcome in episode 22 is really a summation of all the possible paths, and even factoring in the enigmatic timeline of that world that has ended. This is very abstract and I am going to assume that Clannad is what little human can actually comprehend of the history information of the whole system in question.

Wikipedia explained it well...
Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia
In the many-worlds interpretation, both alive and dead states of the cat persist, but are decoherent from each other. In other words, when the box is opened, that part of the universe containing the observer and cat is split into two separate universes, one containing an observer looking at a box with a dead cat, one containing an observer looking at a box with a live cat.
In short, science is fine with a state of dead and alive in a localized system relative to a global system, so you can be too if you want to be~nano.
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Last edited by panzerfan; 2009-03-17 at 20:13.
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