[Kaijo]

Whew, just woke up, and there has been quite a few responses since I went to bed, so forgive me if I don't reply to any of them. If there is a specific point that you would like me to address, then reply to my post and let me know. But just remember, the odds of me doing so, are based on whether you reply to the important specific points I request.

A little Quid Pro Quo, to use another legal team. ^_~

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

I'll go out on a limb and assume that a lot of people are getting headaches reading this thread so, for convenience, I'll summarize the issues being discussed in a friendlier and more civil manner. I'll also bring it up later again when we get more episodes.

1. Are the (soon to be wrecked?) lives of a few girls worth the potential of saving the lives of countless others? This might have a gray area, but in the end is a yes or no question, and as to why one thinks that way. I am myself undecided.

2. Are QBs methods justifiable given two diametrically opposing issues of a) The Contract formation has the capacity to save the lives of others; and yet b) his methods are morally and ethically questionable by human standards. Again the possibility of a gray area, and maybe reconciling the two by having one justify the other may exist depending on your viewpoint. I lean towards a "no" answer, though not yet fully convinced.

3. Who possesses the higher degree of culpability for the fucked up shit the MGs have gotten themselves into? a) The MGs for having a hand in screwing up their lives being directly responsible for their actions and eventual fates for themselves and others; or b) QB for what could be argued is his degree of deceit and amorality in dealing with the girls and the power he has given them; or maybe even c) A mixture of both, therefore no single entity receives all the blame. At least this one has a gray area to choose from, of which I am inclined to put myself in.

4. Is the "good" or "bad" things of being an MG a) Intrinsically tied to the wish and its result; or b) More a result of what the MGs do with their new found power? I am, actually, more inclined to believe the latter, as I have yet to see a direct "bad" to result from choice a. That could easily change though.

So I'm still neutral. Or maybe I could just blame both sides (and thus earn the ire of Triple, Kaijo and Mentar ). Either way it would be best to at least try and distill the current debate in this thread into something simpler for all of us to understand, even those not actively participating.

Heh, you don't earn my ire at all. Indeed, you just earned a lot of respect form me. What we really want is for people to be open-minded and consider the possibility, at least waiting until the anime is finished to form a more concrete view, which is exactly what you are doing. As Triple_R put it, we're playing Devil's/Kyube's advocate, mainly, so the sig is partially tongue-in-cheek (not everyone gets the humor, though, heh). But I'll answer your points:

1. I'd say yes. It is regrettable, but I follow the Vulcan logic of "The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few." From experience, I know real life rarely has perfect answers, and sometimes you have to get your hands dirty.

2. In the General section, there is a thread on "Was the nuclear bombing of Japan in WW2 justified?" It's easy for us to lean back and be an armchair quarterback, judging those who were in the position, since we have 20/20 hindsight and a comfy chair. To that end, I feel I can't be all self-righteous, and just say that war is a dirty business, and will dirty all those that participate. So that's why I'm initially leaning to justifiable (which says nothing in regards to morality) because it saves lives. But this is contingent upon whether there is another, better way that Kyube may have ignored, or that he wasn't responsible for the whole situation. If new evidence comes up, I am more than willing to shift my position to "not justifiable."

3. Definitely C. What a lot of people miss in our arguments, is that we aren't so much defending Kyube, as stating that blame is not solely his. We are each responsible for our own actions and decisions. To place it all on Kyube, is to abdicate any sense of personal responsibility. You can't protect an idiot from themselves, and Kyube's lack of human values makes his methods come across douchy, especially when he doesn't tell them. I understand why he didn't, but it's a tough choice to make. Again, if new evidence shows him in a different light, I will change my view.

4. B. Like you, I have seen no direct connection. The bad things have been purely a result of what the girls do after the wish is granted. Also, Homura bears this out when she says he offers true miracles. And given how many Magical girls she must have come across, I see no reason to doubt her in this regard (unless she's lying, but I see no reason to doubt that at this time; I only doubt what her ultimate goal is). In short, Homura is more of an expert than I, if she really has seen many, many other MG wishes. Given that she has every reason to not like Kyube, her defending his notions speaks volumes to me.

So, in short, those are where my views are. I have more respect for people like you, who keep their minds open, even if they initially feel that Kyube is evil. As long as they are willing to see things through, and be willing to change their minds, then I respect that, even if I ultimately disagree with your viewpoint at the end.

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

Just a quick question I want to ask, given that I have a peripheral background in the medical world: Has there been informed consent?

It's actually not that clear, which is why there is some contention. Kyube made his offer, informed them of a lot of details (both himself, and through Mami). Not everything was covered, but Sayaka had to know that her body would change. She just never asked how that would happen.

So, she agreed to a procedure, but never thought to ask how the doctor would operate on her, even knowing she was going in for an operation. She had a degree of informed consent, but if we are really treating this from a medical standpoint, Kyube was partially a bad doctor for not covering himself from the possible legal ramifications, by not fully telling her everything.

Which is why I do place some blame at his feet, but also why I blame Sayaka. She basically said, "Okay, I'll go under the knife!" without asking what that would entail. And now is complaining when she learns the procedure has a certain side effect (that really hasn't changed much except her own perception).

By any chance, are Triple_R and Kaijo legal students using this as a way to brainstorm and keep their minds fresh while dealing with the workload of reading Law?

Heh, not really. Just a fascination for certain subjects, which is why I brought up the Read the Fine Print section in tvtropes. We're not exactly dealign with a straightforward situation that could be judged in our court system. At least, no legal precedent has been set for magical contracts, heh. Let me quote a relevant part:

"Tropers should rest (mostly) assured that contract law has clauses against "obviously egregious" terms written into a contract. That said, there's plenty of non-egregious ways a contract can harm you — not to mention what counts as legally "egregious" is only extremely outrageous things or something specifically mentioned in law. Judges don't like to overturn a contract unless it is clearly illegal. And the law very often does not prevent "unfair" contracts. "

Bold part is my emphasis. The legality of Kyube's contract would depend greatly upon the judge. The law doesn't exist to protect stupid people, so "unfair" contracts can exist, if you stupidly sign your name to it. This is what I feel Sayaka did. He's a douche, but Sayaka is an idiot.

And I'm real big on personal responsibility, and that the decisions and actions we take, are our fault alone. I won't blame anyone else for what happens to me, if it was my decision that led me to that.