[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by MagiToxin

This is the basis of my argument of the stakes, at the core they are evil...and even if they weren't, it is undeniable that they hurt her family. If Ange was delusional then why use the very instruments of your family's demise as a means of happiness? If Ange is not delusional and the stakes do exist in reality, there's even less reason to like them.

I don't remember perfectly but I seem to remember Ange was thinking about this contradiction of being friendly with the stakes, however she came to the conclusions that furniture are tools, they are neither evil nor good, it's the one that commands them to be blamed. That is true for any POV. Of course you may argue that from the anti-mistery perspective, while the stakes didn't kill by their will, they still enjoyed it. However I think that even the cruelty and ill intent of a furniture mirrors the one of the user. That is why the stakes are not so evil when summoned by Ange.
Mammon also said: "I can't kill if you don't have the will to kill someone with your own hands." And that basically mean that the stakes are perfectly harmless if summoned by a pacifist.
In other words whatever applies for weapons in the anti-fantasy also applies for furniture (who are created from weapon vessels) in the anti-mistery.

Was Battler's theoretical assertion that Kinzo may very well have been dead prior to October 4 applicable to all the previous games, to say that he was in fact already dead before the family meeting even started?

I have a strange belief that Kinzo may in fact very well be dead even before the games started. In fact, that he may have never been alive during ANY of the conferences to begin with. This is a massive mindfuck.

Spoiler for tea party ep4:

it was clearly stated that Kinzo was dead before any game. Anyway I would like to remind every persons that claimed (in front of Battler) they have talked to him throughout ep 1-3.

Nanjo: he says he was playing chess with Kinzo, various instances
Genji: Expecially in the first episode he's frequently questioned about Kinzo
Krauss: He says he has talked to Kinzo every time there's a dinner or a lunch (however he doesn't see him)
Natsuhi: Episode1 she claims she has seen him (however she only saw him from the back)
Shannon: Episode2 she says Kinzo made her write something (Genji politely tells her to shut up)
Rosa: Episode2 she claims she talked directly to Kinzo

With the exception of Rosa, every other case is shown to us. Some of those scenes might be explained if you think they are event of the past, however not all of them can. One in particular shows Nanjo (was it Nanjo? Well it doesn't matter) telling Kinzo to go to dinner at the very least to meet with Battler whom he hasn't seen in six years.

I don't think Kanon ever stated he met Kinzo in front of Battler, however that's probably because he doesn't talk too much. I have no doubt that if questioned he would have no problem saying that Kinzo is alive. Kanon has been seen talking to Kinzo in several occasions, and in one of them told him about the strategy the 3 younger siblings were using to get money from Krauss (which is yet another scene that can't be explained as an event of the past).

There aren't many options available to us:

1) There is a huge conspirancy involving various persons to keep Kinzo's death secret. Well Krauss and Natsuhi do have a reason, however I don't get how Natsuhi could still keep the secret even after the first twilight, so there must be something bigger.
2) There is a Kinzo who is not Kinzo but he/she acts as such and he/she is only shown as Kinzo to us. However it's hard to guess who that might be among the 17 (actually less because we can exclude everyone that is present at the dinner table while Krauss talks to Kinzo)
3) They are all hallucinating

Notable event:

Episode2 Natsuhi and Krauss talk about the meeting preparations. Natsuhi says: "No ......Genji and Doctor Nanjo are on our side. ...I'll never allow those greedy siblings to meet Father."