Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0
I hate to say this because you're arguing pretty well, but I'm still not convinced.
TV tropes describes the word "tsundere" as a merger of "aloof or irritable" and lovestruck. Kuudere, on the other hand, is a merger of cool and lovestruck. Not cold, just cool.
Does Sakaki have a "cold" exterior? No, people just assign her a "cool" image. Same with Mai Kawasumi from Kanon. (Although in that case, the image is only part cool - it's also "scary loner girl".)
And the idea that "kuu" means "cool" isn't just something I came up with: take a look at how this poster defines the difference between "kuudere" and the little used term "dandere", for instance. The "cool" factor is front and center:
http://bangin.wordpress.com/2008/04/...%83%ACdandere/
I consider any behaviour that could qualify as "abrasive" tsun, so to me intentionally acting cold to someone is a kind of tsun, and characters that do this are better described as a tsundere or tsundere-kuudere hybrid, not pure kuudere.
The defrosting ice queen/tsundere distinction you make is useful, the issue is that defrosting ice queen is a TVtropes term, not anime fan slang. Many anime fans would use tsundere simply because they don't know or don't care about the other term. |
Kuudere was originally under Tsundere, but as I mentioned it seem to have branched out into it's own term.
Now a days if you ask for examples of Tsundere from average anime watcher, you get girls like Rin (fate/stay), Asuka (EVA), Naru(Love Hina) and Kallen(Code Geass), the more aggressive ones.
I suppose if you want to you can group Kuudere under the banner of Tsundere as a subtype, but that kind of leaves the "aggressive" version with no specific name. :x
As for Sakaki, hers is more of a case of mistaken identity. XD
I group her under Dandere, who due to her appearance (her height) and unfortunate coincidences ended up getting a "cool girl" image perceived by the rest of the cast.
But we the audience know better right?
I personally don't mind using non-anime slang, for instance girls like Rei(EVA) and Yuki(Haruhi) don't really fit into Kuudere nor Dandere IMO - there is no facade and the dere-dere side is relatively weak nor are they shy.
Ice queen maybe, but they aren't really that cold ... just stoic.
Emotionless Girl is my pick - they are not really completely emotionless, it's just that their emotional side are "weak" (in the case of Rei and Yuki if you have watched those show I think you will know why).
So many opinions and ways to argue. XD
The definition of Tsundere is particularity "divding", hence confusing, which was why I suggested standardizing on terms in the discussion.
This is the problem with language slang I suppose, unlike natural languages themselves or "artificial" computer languages, there is no standardizing authority like dictionaries or standard organisations to properly define things.
I wonder at times what the Japanese (who came up with these terms) think of the terms themselves.
I got a feeling they are just a divided.
