Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari
This is exactly the big picture and problem with this episode: the talking itself is basically moot and serve nothing in the "heroine issue" or her characterization nor actual interaction with Koyomi.
Surely, the monogatari series is (in)famous for its talking head syndrome with gritty/clever themes, characters quirks and so forth. However, it isn't the same in this episode: what we got here? an erotic centred scene based on an extravagant (if not new age?) fetish. Episode 8 basically feels extremely disjointed, as Karen "issue" is already fixed and she could, at most, be a support characters or add some flavor, the same as how every other characters such like Mayoi and Suruga were doing.
Claiming it is all about character talk in this very episode is dubious at best: the circumstances and visuals were the very first striking part of this episode, and frankly, revolving 20 minutes over 1 single game for simply having "Karen meeting Suruga" is beyond something I really expect to be "a clever directing choice" for a series that has only 11 episodes.
Really, it seems you miss completely the point of the problem as it is presented: I don't recall outrage with Hitagi sexy poses at the start of Nise, nor people cried "BOO INCEST" when Koyomi kissed Karen whatsoever.
Again, if fanservice itself was a single moment without being overly dominant for a full episode, theren't wouldn't have that much negative response. However, dedicating a full episode for that, with a very random premise and laid bare script? Hell no. Heck, Archon example is surely effective: Shinobu's showtime has a huge share of fanservice, yet the content and essence is radically different and the response wasn't that much negative.
There is a drastic difference here, period.
Oh well, third time I expose in a different fashion the problem I see in this episode, while other didn't feel that much of an outrage. Pressing the point will be just even more paraphrasing, so I will just end with that.
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What were the elements that convinced you Shinobu's bath scene had meaning beyond fanservice, and why do you think that there aren't actually similar elements here? You say that the focus of this episode is an "extravagant/new-age fetish". We say that it's focus is on Koyomi's relationship with Karen. However much it functions as fanservice, Koyomi and Karen's relationship moving towards elements of explicit and/or self-aware/self-conscious romantic attraction to each other is pretty significant. It has implications regarding Koyomi's relationship with the rest of his family, as well as his relationships with other girls, as well as his committed relationship with his girlfriend. The conclusion at the end of the episode is that Karen and Koyomi have gotten a "little bit" closer. How much is that "little bit", and how will it affect the rest of the story? Saying that this episode featured "no plot" or was "pure fanservice" can't be correct, because the development here will have actual impacts on the rest of the story.
Additionally, that SHAFT/Nishio dedicated an entire episode at this point to Koyomi's relationship with Karen is extremely reasonable given that this was the standard "aftermath/epilogue following a character arc". The beginning of Mayoi's arc focused on Hitagi; Mayoi was featured at the start of Kanbaru's; Kanbaru became a significant factor in Nadeko's; we began to understand Nadeko's true characterization when we moved to Tsubasa's arc. Karen herself showing somewhat rarely during her character arc, it is appropriate to use the introduction to Tsukihi's arc as an opportunity to showcase how Karen has changed and the new state of their relationship.
Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame
Basically, this is the poster-child example of what a difference perspective makes. The issue isn't what the problem is, but why or whether it even is a problem in the first place. When people can't understand someone else's perspective, they often try to reframe it or rationalize it by proposing another explanation/motivation that would make sense to them. For example, I think it's easy for people to imagine that people are so upset by incest or fanservice that "that must be" why their opinion of the episode is tainted. If you do that, it allows you to dismiss that opinion and say "oh they're just biased" (/ignorant/stupid/misinformed/silly/wrong/etc.). Because the alternative is understanding that two totally reasonable people with rational judgement can see the very same thing from two different perspectives and both be absolutely right!
For my part, I can say that I think everything you had to say about the episode makes sense and doesn't seem unreasonable. But I can also say that none of the aspects that troubled you had any impact whatsoever on my enjoyment of the episode. And so, even though we watched the same episode and had largely opposite reactions, we're both right. Vive la différence! 
(Man a lot of forum arguments would end more quickly and peacefully if people could remember this principle... ) |
I don't think it's false to say that the people disappointed with the episode believe that its primary motivation was to indulge in incestual fanservice. The difference between people's reactions to this and previous instances similarly tinged with fanservice was that this time they couldn't see the wider themes/context which connect the fanservice scenes to the story. As some posters have earlier stated, one of the characteristics of the Bakemonogatari series is that the fanservice/eroticism is
intimately coupled with the plot. In this episode, yes of course the scenes were extremely fanservicey and filled with gratuity. However, to write these scenes off and say they have
nothing to do with the overall greater picture of development is simply inaccurate.