Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun
It's called subconscious for a reason. It's not something you have control over, or are even aware of. Shun saw all this shit happening around him due to his power spiraling out of control and came up with this conclusion, this theory (informed, thanks to that book, but still just a theory) of what's happening with him. But he doesn't really know. All he knows is that he never wished for all that crap to happen, he never willed his power to do any of this. It just happened, and that's what makes it so tragic. In the end, he was just an unlucky guy.
|
I don't disagree with any of this. Hence why I put the "inner evil" thing in quotes. I don't think shun was evil at all, but what happened due to him was horrific. His is a tragic story, I don't think there is any rational way to question that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun
What is true love anyway? I'm pretty sure everyone has their own personal take on this so it's a pretty irrelevant point in general. The fact is that Saki and Shun loved a each other, since they said as much (well, in the case of Saki it's her internal monologue that the anime skipped over, but her actions speak for themselves). That's all you need to know to understand why this is such a blow for Saki, and for anyone who can empathize with her. That's all there is to it now, since Shun is out of the game.
|
Yes, I understand that this is a matter of personal take. Hence why I started my post acknowledging that. To each his own, really. The difference here is in holding the opinion that somehow a never professed love is any different from a crush. The way I see it, until a substantial relationship has been built with mutual admission, any semblance of romantic interest is a crush. Crushes can be wonderful and just because I call it a crush doesn't mean I think lowly of the feelings involved. It simply means what crush is supposed to mean. They were children that were interested in each other. Nothing beyond that happened. It was a crush. I don't subscribe to the opinion that children are incapable of strong feelings but I would rather not call such feelings true love.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R
What evidence is there that this supposedly "idealized" version of Shun is so different from the real person?
Yes, Shun was relatively introverted (not as much as Mamoru, but certainly more than Saki, Satoru, and Maria). And there are things he clearly preferred to keep to himself. But his words rarely struck me as insincere.
Simply put, I think that Saki has a better handle on who Shun really is than you think she does. As such, I don't think she's just loving an idealized notion of Shun. She's loving the real person.
Let me use an analogy here - It didn't take Lois Lane long to fall in love with Superman. There's plenty about Superman that Lois Lane didn't know for quite some time. But would you say she only loved an idealized conception of Superman? Well, given how close the real Superman is to that idealized conception anyway, I'm not sure if it really matters at all.
That's similar to how I view Saki's love for Shun.
|
It's not about evidence, it's about the intent. Saki had her own version of Shun she was enamored with. She didn't act on her feelings for the real Shun. She couldn't, and I don't hold it against her at all, but it doesn't change that she was in love with a projection and not the real person. Does that mean she didn't love the real thing at all? Not at all. Projections are based on reality. Was Shun an ideal character? Not exactly, he didn't act on his feelings either, and was far too introverted, but I liked him and I don't think Saki would have hated the real him or anything. All I am saying is that Saki didn't actually spend substantial time with the real Shun. She couldn't for whatever reason. And that's what makes it a crush. An young girl is lovestruck with a somewhat mysterious boy but can't act on her feelings. If that's not a crush I don't know what is.
Btw, it's unrelated but I hold the opinion that Lois' love for Superman is a farce if anything
Most comic book relationships are
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R
I disagree. I think it's very relevant. It's like the difference between a parent who hides troubling family secrets from their children vs. a person who keeps secrets from his/her friends just so they can't enjoy the same benefits that this secret-keeping person does. Some secrets are based on altruism, while others are based on selfishness. I see relevant difference between the two.
|
Fair enough. You say there are relevant differences between hiding information for altruism vs hiding it for an ulterior motive. There indeed are. However, hiding information makes anybody and everybody untrustworthy. I don't care if the government hides secrets from the people for their benefit or not, the fact that they do makes them untrustworthy. Btw, this anime has this grim atmosphere precisely because the adults are hiding information from the children, for the sake of the children from the adults' perspective. It doesn't have to get too complicated really, when a kid in my group acts very furtively, I am going to be somewhat wary of him regardless of his intent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R
No, I'm not ignoring his words at all. Kazu-kun's reply reflects my own view here.
And how can you possibly write that his death was anything but calm? Shun maintained his composure right to the bitter end. His voice was consistently calm and very rarely raised. He went about as calmly to his death as I can imagine any teenager doing.
|
See my reply to Kazu-kun's post.
His death was anything but calm. His whole village got warped before he died. He took several poisons but they wouldn't affect him. His parents got killed before his eyes. His dog got mutated and murdered before him. It took all of that for him to make up his mind. Did he die a respectable death? Certainly so. But was it calm? Not really. He may have been calm at the exact instance when he perished but he was in great turmoil for an extended period before that. Death throes, if you will. That's disregarding what he said about his subconscious altogether. Even when you look away from how violent his subconscious was, his conscious self was also torn between all sorts of emotions before he chose to end it all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R
There's a very good, practical reason for why she didn't act on it, which unfortunately the anime never stated explicitly. I'll share that with you in PMs.
|
I knew the reason you wrote in the pm. And I already admitted that it wasn't feasible for Saki to have acted on it and that I didn't take anything away from her for not acting on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R
No, I think that you're massively downplaying it here. Shun and Saki have a story on the level of Romeo and Juliet, imo.
I think your stance does a grave disservice to couples that simply never had a chance to put their love to the test of time.
I mean, would you say that Romeo and Juliet never felt true love for each other because their love was never put to the test of time?
My view is once a person is really, truly willing to die for the sake of another, that's true love. Saki repeatedly put her life in grave peril to try to rescue Shun.
I mean, really think about your position here, and what it would mean for an awful lot of anime characters. I mean...
|
Admiring the strength of feelings isn't the same as thinking of those feelings as being that of true love. It is possible for a couple to feel very very strongly for each other today and to grow over it relatively quick once the stage changes. I don't think of such ephemeral feelings as true love. I can however respect the legitimacy of such feelings.
Let me give you a twisted example.
Say there was an young boy who led a really poor country through a revolution against a horrible regime. Let's say he was truly charismatic and that he genuinely wanted to liberate his people and his country. Let's say a decade down the road, he started amassing power for himself and people close to him. Let's say that another decade down the road, he was doing all sorts of shady thing to keep the power for himself. Let's say that yet another decade down the road, some other revolution ousted his regime. The boy did indeed love his country and people when he was young but it didn't stay that way. Even if it did in his intent, it didn't in his actions.
About Romeo and Juliet, I don't really consider that true love either. Romeo is infatuated with Rosaline at the beginning of the story and his affair with Juliet is all too short to call it true love. I have read really humorous parodies of the plot where Romeo moves on to another girl after Juliet "dies" (depending on the parody, she is either faking it to potentially escape with him, to test him or just wants this stalker to gtfo) and I find those to be more honest with the reality of the relationship than this idea that Romeo and Juliet were somehow in true love when they barely even interacted with each other. I would say I find that particular relationship a lot weaker (and less tragic) than Saki and Shun's even.
As for the content under those spoilers, those aren't necessarily true love either. Those characters suffered a lot for the people they loved and the strength of their feelings was palpable in their sacrifices, but that show itself indicated that some of those relationships were borderline obsession and not true love per se. Feel free to hate me for putting it that harshly ;_;
Thing is, Satoru went through a great deal to save Saki earlier on when he didn't "love" her (at that point, he didn't). Thing also is, I have gone through great perils for my friends that I didn't hold specially over my other friends. I have seen great people who threw their lives away for the sake of completely unrelated people. The fact that Saki went to great lengths to reach out to Shun does show how much she cared for him but feeling really strongly for a person isn't the same as being in true love or whatever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R
I agree with the idea that the test of time is a great way to test the strength of two people's love for one another (and if their love fails that test for any reason other than death or literally forced separation, then yeah, that reflects poorly on their "love"). However, for obvious reasons I don't think it's a fair test to apply when one half of the couple dies at a young age. Then it's important to try to judge if any of the actions that the characters took for each other can "make up for" the lack of the test of time. And with Saki and Shun, I think there are clear instances that can make up for this lack of the test of time.
|
Referring back to my twisted example. If the boy was shot was when he was still young and leading the revolution, he would have been heralded as a most venerable heroic martyr ;_; For me, for something like true love, the only possible evidence is the test of time. That doesn't mean I don't find myself feeling sad for Saki and Shun nor does it mean I diss martyrs who die young. Far from it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R
Saki doesn't strike me as a person who does crazy things for the sheer thrill of it. So I think that the argument you made after this question is really stretching things when it comes to her.
I think it makes a lot more sense to chalk up Saki's actions in this episode, and the last, to her having a deep, true love for Shun.
|
I said it in the post you quoted right afterwards that I don't think she she did it for the sheer thrill of it either. What I hoped to tell you with that was simply that people don't think rationally when they're in danger and that Saki's leaving to reach out to Shun after strongly forbade from doing so was already enough to show us how strongly she cared for Shun. That encounter with the cat was at best icing on the cake. Heck, if anything, I would find her to be dumb (and a very unbelievable character) if she gave up on meeting Shun after that encounter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R
As for my questions, I raised them for comparison purposes (Saki/Shun vs. Saki/Satoru vs. Shun/Satoru). My argument is that Saki and Shun love each other more than either one loves Shun (and more than Satoru loves Saki or Shun).
However, if you're not interested in that particular comparison, we can skip it.
|
That part is obvious and a given. At least until this episode anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R
Will all due respect, you sure use that word "crush" an awful lot, for someone who says he doesn't want to dare say that Shun and Saki's love for each other is just a crush.
It seems to me that you're daring to say exactly that quite a bit...
|
In my defense, I am forced to use the word a lot due to the discussion at hand
Also, I don't see why a crush needs be "just a crush" and not something wonderful. The way I see it, a crush is merely any kind of attraction felt for another teen. When you profess it and work on it, it can turn into a relationship and hopefully true love but until then, it's a crush. More or less. Obviously, these things aren't that simple and I am more or less arguing for the sake of arguing but I don't think of that as an auto-invalidation of points I raise even if most people do. I already admitted that this here is more or less an issue of personal take and semantics anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R
I think that Satoru cared for Shun and vice versa. In fact, I think that Satoru loved Shun sincerely, and romantically. I think that Shun genuinely liked Satoru, but that his feelings for Saki ran deeper than his feelings for Shun (much like how Saki's feelings for Shun ran deeper than Saki's feelings for Maria).
Anyway, I totally disagree with the idea that Shun and Satoru's feelings for each other can be accurately portrayed as "a crush". No, I'm very confident that they felt true love for each other.
|
More or less agreed, at least on the intent even if not so much on the wording.
If anybody else is referring to me when they shout at people who are still beating a dead horse and refusing to believe that Saki and Shun loved each other, well, you either didn't really read through everything I wrote or just didn't get it. If it's the latter, apologies for being bad at exposition
Anyway, moving on,
I think your hate for Saki is unjustified, CJ Walker. And she doesn't really have the MC plot armor. Bear in mind that this is all being narrated by her so it's already a given that she survived all of this until at least the event of narration. The story had a survivor who survived thanks to stuff that the story pointed out as being stuff that would help her survive. How is that plot armor o_o? She was indeed a bitch to Mamoru but oh well, that's reason to like her than to hate her because perfect characters only exist when the author bullshits around. She felt bad and apologetic right away too! I don't think her retorts at her parents are unwarranted. She isn't nearly as whiny as most girls in anime (or real life, for that matter).
I would have liked to see more stuff from Shun's perspective too but I don't think he could have worked as the MC for this story.
I would also like to see some stuff from the adults' perspective. Here's hoping we get some of it, at least when Saki herself becomes an adult.
I noticed those crotch shots too! And yeah, while I don't necessarily agree with some of the facial expressions towards the very end of the episode (too stoic and indifferent imo, and weird angles too), Saki looked very beautiful this episode in certain shots. Not cute, but beautiful. Definitely more of an adult charm to her this episode. If I was shown this episode as a stand alone, I would never have guessed her age as 14.