[monster]

Originally Posted by Haak

I repeat: The ban was on NJ's, not NJCs. The NJs were being dug out.

No, the point is to restrict nuclear weapons from being used. Banning NJC would do that because of the NJ.

Just because it doesn't prove she's for nuclear weapons as a deterrent, that automatically means the rest of Orb is against it?

It means that they won't use nuclear weapons, especially not with the ban in place.

Which means the situations are completely different. Unlike in this case, EA didn't have their eyes set on a nuclear attack on Orb immediately and were currently in negotiations with them. And a nuclear attack was never specifically mentioned as their reason to form the treaty so it's highly unlikely that they were under that kind of pressure and had time.

They weren't, but that's beside the point, which is that MAD wasn't a factor for the EA (or Zala) in the war.

Except that they were surprised. If you watch the episode again, you'll see that they were clearly surprised and would have all been wiped out had it not been for Athrun and Kira.

They weren't surprised that the EA will use nuclear weapons again. Yzak's mother even addressed that in her speech before the battle. The only one who was shown to be "surprised" was Yzak, but that's more of shock realization that he's finally encountering nuclear weapons being deployed in person. Everybody knew in the back of their mind that the EA will use nuclear weapons again, even the TSA.

More riskier than outright mobile suits battles? If they have enough money to spend on humongous Destroys and a giant death laser, then they have the money to make more nuclear weapons and experiment with them at different ranges.

Yes, with mobile suit battles it could go either way. With the stampeder, they would be dead if there's any nuclear weapons in their ships.

The problem with nuclear weapons is that you have to deploy it when it's close. If they deploy it too far away, the nuclear weapons would be destroyed before it could reach its target. And with the stampeder, that is almost a certainty, and not just the missiles deployed, but any remaining weapons in their ships.

Imo, a plothole is something that breaks either internal or external consistency. But now we're just talking semantics. For the record i don't actually think it's the same as GENESIS.

A "risky, time consuming and as costly ... stupid giant death beam crap"

Yeah, that fits GENESIS as well, or any other giant beam in Gundam.

Not only then. They were on the back even before then and before than they were still at a stalemate with ZAFT and not getting anywhere.

Which is fine if their ultimate goal is to destroy the PLANTs. The loss at Heaven's Base forced Djibril to move up the time table.

So what you've just done is proven that Orb really shouldn't be worried about the EA after all.

Nope, in SEED Orb was attacked when the EA wanted to get to space.

Thankfully for you, I don't really agree. It may have ended up in space in Destiny but only because Jibril was backed into fleeing into space. That doesn't mean Earth isn't important to them. He spent a lot of time demonstrating his power on Earth after all. He planned to wipe out all of ZAFT. That would have to include the ZAFT on Earth as well.

Of course, but that's why he has the Destroys built. The nuclear weapons and Requiem are still meant for PLANTs themselves.

We're looking at the situation from Orb's perspective here. If Orb are already thinking EA might do something quickly, then the EA are definitely not gonna get their hands on anything because Orb are clearly already prepared.

Not necessarily, it depends on what the leaders are wiling to sacrifice.

And even if we're not looking at it from Orb's perspective, the Golden Gundam already proves EA won't get jack.

?

That also means Orb can not make any assumption that EA is an actual threat to them and thus a 180 degree reversal is not required and they can remain neutral.

Nope, they're basing this on their experience that the EA can be a threat.

The truth is, Orb has to consider the EA's perspective so that they know what they can do to avoid conflict. No they won't have control over EA's perspective but what they decide to do is obviously going to be based on what they think EA's perspective is. And the fact of the matter remains that from Orb's perspective, EA will not be looking at them at all, so Orb have plenty of time and they don't have to make a treaty so quickly.

They don't have to, but they can and did.

And what does that prove? Yuna makes the point that EA is still a danger to them. That's the kind of perspective I'm calling BS on in the first place.

Which is what I'm calling BS on since their perspective should've have clearly been different.

Well, that's the thing about perspective. It could be different for different people. That doesn't mean it's BS.

If the EA never attacked Orb, you might have a point. But since the EA did attack Orb, they also can have the perspective that they do, especially since Cagalli wasn't able to get support in the government.

If it was all about power levels, then why would the rest of ZAFT's involvement be a bad thing?

Because of power levels. ZAFT is already at war with the EA, they don't need to make an enemy out of Orb without reason.