[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

I'm going to add that I really don't know what makes you think it would be odd for Kinzo to consider a person who isn't his child to be his child considering he considered Beato 2 to be Beatrice 1's reincarnation. It's omnipresent in the story, how Kinzo doesn't care about blood heritage.

But then why is it important to him that someone be his child? Why does he want Yasu to be his and Beatrice's child instead of being Beatrice herself? What did he mean when he said: "......Yes. ......Your voice resembles your mother's. Even your face reminds me of that mother and daughter."?

It's clear that Kinzo is telling 2 stories at once in this scene. One is the story where Beatrice Castiglioni, Beatrice-II, and Yasu, are all the same "Beatrice"; the other is story where they are grandmother, mother, and child. What you are saying is that both stories are fantasy.

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Still you do realize that if Kinzo didn't rape Beato 2 and didn't get her pregnant it not only redeems him but make him quite a nice person for considering an adopted child to be truly his child.

Uh no. Either way still he imprisoned her for her entire life, stifling every drop of human potential she might of had, for his own selfish reasons. A temporary sexual violation of her body, however traumatic, doesn't even compare.

Although he did both.

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

... In fact I'm pretty certain the only reason there is a sort of consensus over the "rape" idea is because of spoilers from before the translation resuming the revelations that way rather then use the same wording then in the game, making it already generally accepted before most got to read the actual scene.

I read episodes 1-7 last summer without any exposure to any spoilers (other than having also watched the anime beforehand) and came to the "rape" conclusion my first time through.

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

See it's not so hard to not look down on the man.

I don't really see how him knowingly viewing people as "homunculus" that exist to be molded with weird psychological tricks in order to fulfill his own bizarre fantasy needs makes him a more sympathetic character. At best it's a step sideways.

Originally Posted by Renall

Assuming that ever even happened, Kinzo is portrayed as a delusional hysteric who is predisposed to believe exactly the things he claims, regardless of whether they can be independently confirmed. Does he demand a blood test? No. Does he even seem to care about that? No. What exactly is his basis for his belief? Yasu solved the epitaph. That's it.

Yes, I realize that Yasu=Lion does not necessarily follow from the reunion scene. My point with the post of mine that you quoted was against UsagiTenpura's assertion that Lion never existed at all. Although I do also think, with significantly less certainty, that Yasu=Lion.

Originally Posted by Renall

Only a fool or a madman would consider that logic to be coherent. Other than the whole scene smacking of fantasy, Kinzo's behavior in it even if taken as accurate cannot possibly be considered reliable.

First off, I'm not sure why you think the scene was "smacking of fantasy":

Originally Posted by from Yasu's inner-monologue at the time of revelation

Is such a strange fate...... really possible.......?
I've dreamed about it. Dreamed about what it would be like to be the Golden Witch, Beatrice.
But that dream was for me alone.
So, I'd dreamed that if the epitaph was solved and its ceremony carried out, I would revive as the true Beatrice.
......So, is it really conceivable that...
......that after I solved it...that Beatrice did revive after all......?

She's clearly contrasting the event with fantasy, which, assuming the event is fantasy, means either A: Yasu is unable to tell the difference between fantasy and reality at all or B: Claire is not just embellishing or leaving out some of Yasu's thoughts, but is completely misrepresenting them. Either way, it brings all of Claire's story to a level of unreliability close to uselessness, which would be retarded since her motivation is to be understood.

Second, I'd like to point out that if Yasu=Lion is entirely Kinzo's personal fantasy, you'll also have to call GenSawaJo's testimony unreliable and assume that all three of them continued to adhere to Kinzo's delusion, knowing it was just the fantasy of a madman, for over a year after his death. Possible, of course, but it's A Thing you have to assume.

And of course it still leaves unexplained Yasu's special treatment before the revelation, which is a big thing.