[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Macbrother

Acutally that's exactly what it is. How a normal shinobi will grow with age, has very little to do with the point, that of how Yondaime would. I never responded that Yondaime would would never stop to grow based on regular ninja, in fact I have been using the sannin has the data set the entire time, as they make an excellent showing of how geniuses grow with age. As for the topic of 'regular' ninja, again we are pretty much at a stonewall here. Without any data to back either side, it is best to let that topic die. As for would've Yondaime become stronger, I stick to my original statement as well.

Ah seriously Macbrother don't be stupid, Here is just a few paragraphs of your using the regular ninjas as argument I could double the amount just with some of my answer and still multiply the whole thing by quoting them all but it take too much place I'm already at the limit of 10000 character by post.

Spoiler:

The point of that message was that shinobi are very much unlike athletes. Athletes are tied almost solely to their physical condition, which starts to noticably decline at 35 or a bit before. Shinobi, however, are not solely bound to their physical condition. Even at the age of 50, they still retain knowledge of all of their jutsu, most of their chakra and even sharper intellect and can compete on the level or greater than shinobi much younger than them. This is not the case with an athlete.

shinobi don't reach 25 and say "ok, I'm at my prime, now I'm going to stop learning new and more powerful jutsu because I'm at my prime." The strength of a shinobi is a continual process which depends on what their stamina, what jutsu they know, and other physical abilities. While the speed and strength may decline, the chakra remains relatively constant and the knowledge of jutsu increases.

Ninja abilities are bound by much more than their physical ability alone, that being their intellect and jutsu knowledge. They are in a sense part-athlete, part-martial artist and part-spell caster. It takes no physical speed or strength to sit back and move my hands really fast and overwhelm a younger, healthier shinobi who doesn't have the jutsu to compete.

Let's say a shinobi john learns Katon super fireball at 25, then learns Katon grand fireball at 35, then learns Katon ultimate fireball at 45. John is strongest at 45, why? Because he has learned better and more capable jutsu, regardless of his waning physical strength and speed. His chakra is remaining reasonably constant because the increase in his traning and experience are balancing out the decrease his physical energy. That seems to me a reasonable explanation as to why sannin retain their enormous chakras even at 50. Yes, this example is contrived but the point remains, time allows for learning and creation of better jutsu which can make a better shinobi, period.

We're not talking about 'amount' of jutsu, we're talking about 'strength' of jutsu, e.g., A-rank versus C-rank. John at 25 is young and fast but only knows a handful of lesser-rank jutsu, where John at 45 has had time to learn and master much better A-rank jutsu, it's likely the 45 year-old John is going to have jutsu that the 25 year-old cannot handle, regardless of his physical capacity. If I make the technique genjutsu, it becomes even more glaringly obvious, what could the 25 year-old who knows much less jutsu with far less experience do against a high-level genjutsu? Again, the overall point being age allows for time to learn more and stronger jutsu than you would have in your arsenal were you younger.

And you didn't use the data of the Sannin because there is no data about how their strength changed with age.

Which is boggling, my original point was Sarutobi had 50 years to establish his legend, and by all accounts, shinobi of that calibur appear retain or keep growing with knowledge and ninjutsu in that time period.

And my original point was that Sarutobi didn't need 50 years to establish his legend and that even shinobi of that caliber weaken with age.

Yes, in the end. When did I argue it didn't? And right, after experiencing life for 50 years you don't have a better of idea what to expect, how to react, and what's correct when you did at 20? Now that is bullshit.

No that the sad truth, I worked and still work with plenty of young boys around their twenty and men over their fifty and I can assure you that being older isn't equal to wiser.
That just depend of the people, not of their age.
Sorry to breack your dream to become automatically wiser while you would grow old.

I didn't 'reduce' knowledge or wisdom to anything, I'm merely using it in the context of this dicussion. Of course knowledge is going to refer to jutsu knowledge or 'whatever' knowlege thats beneficial in battle that they pick up, what else would I refer to? If you agree then that allows ninja to continue to improve their skills, great. Looks like we can leave another topic in dust

Yes you reduce these terms, wisdom and battle experience doesn't imply the same thing.
Except that yeah we can drop this point.

Not quite. One is saying it makes no difference. The other is saying it might make a difference but certainly nothing noticable and nothing we can show to be noticable. If you have evidence to the contrary (that age is making a relavent difference to chakra at 50), please show it.

lol exactly what I said, Six of one and half a dozen of the other, you just play with words.
And show me a relavent evidence that age doesn't make a relavent difference to chakra and overall strength at 50, please show it.

The point here is that it is Orochiamru and his physical body that his enormous, legendary chakra. How come when he switches (changes bodies) he didn't have any apparent chakra loss? Are we to assume there is a good supply of people walking around with legendary chakra that compares to the sannin? Before you mention it, yes, it is Orochimaru's spiritual energy that makes up for some of the chakra, but he switched bodies and in turn switched his physical energy for the physical energy of the body he took on. Are we to assume the body he took on also had enormous, ridiculous chakra like the sannin? When almost no one in Naruto sports this kind've chakra? (My overall point being the above is unlikely, and therefore the amount of chakra one has isn't related to the physical body quite like we may imagine.)

You confond physical energy and chakra, the second comes from the first but it's not the same thing.
The body that Oro chose are young, strong and healthy with surely plenty of physical energy.
Besides the chakra producing organs work probably better when they're young.

Hold up, where is it said that the age of her body changes? The appearance has changed yes, but she is still 50, and her body is still aging. There's nothing that shows she has somehow by-passed the limits of age using this body, but merely walks in this form because she doesn't like looking old or because she needs to change appearances whenever necessary. (like decieving debtors, like Jiraiya said)

Even the Henge isn't an illusion but real changement of the body even able to morph you onto an object, and besides Tsunade 's true body is older than 50, her jutsu ages her body in exchange to regenerate her completely.
Heck, when she isn't using her jutsu she seems in an even worse state than the 3rd at 67~68 with her decrepit and shaking arms.

Surely you are aware that the rate of age can and does change over the course of a lifetime. Yes, one is always getting older, but I may not experience rapid health loss until 50, 65, or even older, depending on who the person is. We have evidence that age affects you at 67, e.g., Sarutobi. We have zero evidence that it affects you at 50, in the world of Naruto. Which is my point.

Seriously stop dreaming, yeah the body experiment health loss before 50 years old, your only 'point' is that basic knowledge aren't the same in the world of Naruto, well guess what it was never said either that the sky is blue but until the contrary is stated there is no reason to think otherwise.

Maybe because you're putting words in my mouth? I never said it was non-existant.

=

Like I said earlier, it's likely that in Naruto the aging process is either extremely slow, or non-existant at 50

Maybe you should read your own post when you write them?

Except the fact that Sarutobi said you must make a contract before using this jutsu, whereas that was never said of Edo Tensei, and would be illogical anyways, who would you make the contract with?

No, the 3rd said that only those who forms a contract with this jutsu can see the Shinigami.

There is nothing about to sign a contract before, from what the 3rd says it seems that the jutsu is the contract, to perform the jutsu is the signature by itself.
For the Edo Tensei no idea, I was just saying that we don't know shit about this jutsu except that it requires a sacrifice to hold the soul.

lol, where's it said there are multiple shinigami? (in the world of Naruto) And again, yes, the point of the moment (protecting your country) hits alot more harder by showing Oro sacrificing his, but still, why go through the trouble of killing people you trained when you can just get a corpse of someone already dead?

Seriously stop to add -in the world of Naruto- when you ignored something.
What are the Shinigami is commom knowledge for japanese people.
And again it's the way around, why bother to seek 2 others people whereas you have 2 guys who're not useful anymore within reach?
Oro just found an utility for them.
Besides you need a sacrifice to hold the soul, you don't merely need a corpse, you need to kill someone.

Because, after he says the name, instead of saying "so it's that jutsu..." he still asks how he got here, like he doesn't know anything about the jutsu other than the name itself. Then Shodaime's response is "if that's the case" as if though Nidiame had explained the answer when he seemingly didn't even know it himself. And indeed, the anbu captain seemed to know all about it, which is pretty solid enough evidence despite the hokage's responses.

No in both anime and manga they're not even surprised to be here and immediately understand the situation.

Actually hopefully your last statement here gets much of the point I've been trying to get across all along, that the ninjutsu aspect, being the least effected by the body is more in the sense of a spell-caster who is almost always stronger with age. Oro as a ninjutsu specialist combined with his experience combined with the fact sannin still have incredible movement, chakra, etc would all but certainly lend the fight to the older Orochimaru.

My last statement is basically a copy and past of my first answer to this point 4 pages ago you know...
For your spell caster point I think raikage answered to it pretty much (still 4 pages ago) and as I said you take an extreme example as a generality.
Oh and I didn't see the Sannin having 'incredible movement', neither Oro nor Jiraiya nor Tsunade who pained to catch Kabuto who isn't even particulary good in Taijutsu.

I never said had to either :P

So what's the point to this whole discussion to begin with?
To say that it wasn't certain that the 4th would have became really particulary stronger is my original point.

Regardless of why you and I assume, the outcome (that at 50 they are showing zero reference or ability loss due to age) is the same.

Indeed the outcome is the same given that it's the only sure point of all that lol

I never said time always = strength or training. But in the case of the Oro/Tsunade/ (maybe) jiraiya/Yondaime, that is proven to be the case.

Given that Oro doesn't age your only example remains Tsunade.
And still no it's absolutely not proven.

lol of course not those 'specific titles', but most any title like 'greatest of the sport' or 'alexander the great' etc etc are given not in the athlete or leader's prime, but after it, or perhaps even after their deaths.

And plenty of other people gain their 'title' right when they reach the peak in their field, so?

Yes, of course the professor and 'God of the shinobi' are different titles, but also of course one (the professor) effects and surely plays a large role in the latter.

It's not certain at all, actually I see it the way around.
First he was the strongest Ninja blahblahblah, then he was known as the professor.