[2H-Dragon]

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

If that is the case, then I challenge you to show how preachers can manipulate people without religion. I also challenge your statement that religion provides rules. All social animals, yes even humans, have innate and learned rules of social conduct, with no need for religion. Religions' rules ("Thou shalt not kill") are so disregarded that they might as well not exist. Ironically, religious rules on diet and fasting seem to be taken more seriously by more people than the restriction against killing each other.

Originally Posted by Icehawk

Are you saying they'd be lawless amoral people inclined to violence and conflict if they happened to be mostly secular/atheist/agnostic

I mentioned WWII with a reason. Read up on how Hitler did it.
Don’t get me wrong the rules from the religion how they live to it doesn’t make the situation much better. At least it gives women some legal rights and slaves a chance at freedom. Think about it if you grew in the wartorn countries in the middle east. Do you honestly think you would have the same social conduct as you have now?
Is it the religions fault though that people disregard that rule? That’s like Hitler blaming the Jews for everything.

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

It was actually the Palestinians' land (referring to the Arabs who lived in the region), until the Europeans conquered it during the imperialism era. Then after WW2, they gave it to the Jews and put them in charge. If not for religious differences, they would have been able to live peacefully together there. There is also of course the religious discrimination that necessitated the founding of Israel as a "Jewish homeland."
You seem to be having an emotional reaction to my statement, so I think you've either misinterpreted me or have an attachment to Israel.

Right back at ya. Yeah I know. I think you misunderstood me, maybe I didn’t get my point over clear enough.

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

Why not? They are acting irrationally, and their behavior is learned as children from the adults around them.

Let’s take Afganistan as an example. They have nothing, but other countries coming over and dicking around. It isn’t really safest nor a fun place to live in. Most of them live below basic living standard. Yet they have no real means to fight back. Do you expect them to just accept the situation? If Europe invaded America and China saved you, but China decided who gets in charge. Would you accept that situation? You however have no weapons to fight back. Then someone comes around with a story that if we attack China directly. The general public might force the Chinese government to mind their own business. In that situation the extreme measures make more sense then the peaceful measures.

People rather have a horrible leader they know, than someone who got power from an outsider. Rational? Hardly, but these are people who grew up under different circumstances. Not everyone has had education, means to study.

Is it weird the adults there teach their kids how they where treated? Yeah it’s easy for you to forgive your forefathers for their sins (like taking over America). You however have no intention in doing the right thing and give the country back. The current Indians however never forgot and still feels it’s and injustice done to them. Just, because it was a done in the past doesn’t make it okay. In the case of the middle-eastern countries it was pretty recent.

Originally Posted by Icehawk

Even if we assume this is the case, this would mean god or the people who were "channeling gods words" to the scriptures were obviously extremely shortsighted or completely moronical for allowing the scriptures to be so easy to "manipulate" by others in the first place. If the scriptures are supposed to be taken seriously, they should atleast be written in such a way as to minimize as much as possible the ability to "missread" or "missinterpret" them. If "God" or "Allah" were as great as he's made out to be, you'd think he would have wanted and ensured it would be made out that way.

Can’t talk about the bible, since I lack knowledge on the book.
The holy scriptures was given as guidance. It’s to the people if they choose to believe it or abuse it. If Allah(saw) wanted everyone to be a believer he would make it so, but that would take away our free will.
Some so called muslims over here seem to smoke during vesting, when I call them on it. They get mad. Yet in the eyes of others we are the same.
The Quran, is actually pretty straightforward on the important topics, like killing and such. You have to take the Quran as a whole, sadly people just pick and choose what they want. People also have the tendency to mix up culture with religion. The hadith doesn’t help much either it changed so much over time(not that it was accurate to begin with).

As an example. Women aren’t allowed to drive cars, is said to stem from Islamic Law. Honestly you need to be really creative to get that from the Quran.

Let’s get on topic now :P . A non believer believes that the world came into existence by chance, or simply doesn’t know. A believer simply chooses to believe it is done by a higher being. Why the second makes more sense to me is hard to say. It’s just the feeling I get. People are driven by emotions all the time. What I don’t get why I have to justify my religion. That people still 21st century still fail to see the difference between the individual and the group, is pretty sad tbh.