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Quote:
Originally Posted by Felyndiira
Kasumi's ability isn't to draw the exact tile she needs, though - it's simply to draw 'tiles of one suit and honors'. This is also a bit of a strange case, since Toki's foresight in Kuro's case never really extended to her draws, but only to her discards (she was only really able to complete a hand once in the two times she faced , and that time Toki never tried to change the flow at all). As a result, the draws are still Schrodinger's tiles at this point so it still does not invalidate Toki's ability, whereas a specific Tsumo call would make the tile obvious and would make the two abilities clash directly.
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Toki did call to change the flow to stop Kuro from winning, although Kuro is actually easier to disrupt since she needs to draw specific tiles to get a win.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Felyndiira
There is an entire article out there analyzing Kuro's ability and how it can be used if, say, we kept the ability constant but switched Kuro with a better player like Hisa or Hiroe:
http://www.fnsna.net/side/?p=1238
Of course, the problem is still Teru's Ea, which we've already noted to have way too much dominance of the board.
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Well that's interesting and all, but I want to know a way for Kuro to improve her skill with her ability like how Koromo told Yuuki to try and make every game a single east round. I'm guessing maybe before the finals she'll figure away out to make her magnet more like Yuu's, basically a loophole in her ability that she can abuse.
I'm actually wondering who can stop Teru's board dominance besides Saki. I'm guessing Cold Touka would be able to challenge her. Don't know if this has been noted, but what really makes her scary even when she has 3 limiters on her, she can still tear things up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Felyndiira
As for the four kans, it's actually notable that Kuro does not always draw dora (she does, however, shut anyone else from drawing it). She's also never shown to draw more than three of any one dora tile in any of her plays that I remember, so that might be implicitly a limitation to her ability. Also, the red-5 doras that she also tends to draw basically nulls that possibility, and is possibly the reason why she never calls kans (since it could very easily lock her into having 14 doras and being forced to discard one).
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I actually have a theory that Kuro does always draw Dora, its just they ura dora and kan dora. I only suggested a 4 melded kans yakuman because it was the most likely way for Kuro to improve her ability.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Felyndiira
Just randomly throwing it out there, but the 'Achiga's Captain is a monkey' joke still cracks me up whenever I see it.
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I don't mind good old fashioned teasing, after all I love the bit when someone poked fun at the possibility of the captain battle becoming one where Saki said Shizuno was just a pathetic washboard, and how the 4th captain would be like, 'what the hell I'm chooped liver'.
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Originally Posted by night_sentinel
Saki vs. Kuro
This fight is a bit lopsided. Saki has a history of trumping powers that are suppose to be absolute, but even if we give Kuro the hypothetical advantage and assume that Saki won't be getting any dora which includes the kan dora. Kuro is a still outmatched.
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Where has Saki trumped absolute abilities, not saying your wrong, I genuinely want to know where Saki has done this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by night_sentinel
For one, Kuro won't be getting the benefits of those kan dora since whenever Saki calls a kan, she is almost guaranteed to get a rinshan kaihou. Unless, Saki is planning something else. For reference of what Saki could plan to do just look at Teru's kan in Achiga-hen. Saki can also make Kuro's hand overflow with dora and force Kuro to choose to discarding a dora which will negates her power for the rest of the match or probably play into Saki's hand.
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Kan dora, never help Kuro, they only really hinder her, unless maybe there were no aka dora.
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Originally Posted by night_sentinel
Assuming both abilities are absolute and will not negate each other.
Kasumi and Kuro will not draw the 1 pin.
After all, Kasumi has many pin tiles + honor to draw from. Kuro, on the other hand, would draw other doras and tiles that are not Kasumi's one suit. This way both abilities will stay true without any hassle.
Now, the next question would be?
If no one draws the one-pin? Where will it go?
I believe that due to both abilities, it would then have a drastically lowered chance to draw for all players so it would probably be relegated as the last tile that could be drawn on the live wall. Another possibility is the one pin would be stuck on the dead wall where no one can draws it.
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No I'm pretty sure it would got to Kuro, although I believe someone said that Kasumi's suit magnet doesn't usually have the dora in it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by teja208
Koromo: AFTER PLAYING THEM, I THINK YOU MIGHT HAVE QUITE AN ENEMY, SAKI.
Saki: THAT'S OKEY. I'D BE HAPPY TO PLAY SOMEONE STRONG.
Koromo: NO...
Koromo: ACHIGA'S CAPTAIN...
...
...
...
...IS A MONKEY.
Well, I don't see anything funny about that.
...
...
...
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Okay that is hilarious.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Felyndiira
Also, this might be an old topic, but I just noticed this little detail today after my fifth readthrouth of this chapter. Remember when Saki said she 'had to resort to +/- 0' and was afraid of Kyouko?
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That's actually really interesting and really great that you figured it out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by night_sentinel
I would just like to add some things. Beside Kyouko and Kasumi nullifying Saki's kan, I think one of the main reason, Saki said Kyouko was troublesome was because Kyouko technically put Saki's score below zero.
Remember, Saki said that she started the round by using the mental trick that Hisa taught her back in the first chapter. So this would be the beginning score :
Saki : 25,000 - 24,000 = 1000
Kyouko : 25,000 + 8,000 = 33,000
Kasumi :25,000 + 8,000 = 33,0000
Toyone: 25,000 + 8,000 = 33,000
East 1st round
As Felyndiira said, Kyouko "accidentally" stopped Saki's kan. Kyouko called something allowing Kasumi to get the tile Saki needs and since Kasumi is a really good defender she kept it. Anyway the round ends with Kyouko ronning Toyone.
Saki : 1,000
Kyouko : 33,000 + 3,900 = 36,900
Kasumi : 33,000
Toyone: 33,000 - 3,900 = 29,100
East 2nd round
Saki is looking remarkably put out. Anyway, this round ends with Kyouko doing a tsumo. (2,000/1000)
Saki : 1,000 - 1,000 = 0
Kyouko : 36,900 + 4,000 = 40,900
Kasumi : 33,000 - 1,000 = 32,000
Toyone : 29,100 - 2,000 = 27,100
East 3rd round
I think Saki is still a bit shaken in this round. Unfortunately, this is Saki's dealership and she got hit by a ron. Ouch. And consequently if we follow her perspective, she is also below zero. Double ouch. Notably, it was Kyouko who did this by directly hitting Saki.
Saki : 0 - 2,600 = -2,600
Kyouko : 40,900 + 2,600 = 43,500
Kasumi : 32,000
Toyone: 27,100
I hypothesize that this is the time wherein Saki decides to switch out of Hisa's mental trick and go for the easier and more comfortable (for her, anyway) +/-zero route. If you check the manga page, we get Toyone and Kasumi's reaction to this win which is in the variation of easy going comments about how Kyouko seems to be rushing her win. Saki doesn't have any comment and now we know why.
East 4th round (Saki is already in the +/-zero mode)
This is Kyouko's dealership. She is once again rushing to get a quick win. But, the moment she did a riichi, Saki called a kan on Kyouko's discards and won.
Rinshan Kaihou for 8,000 points + 1,000 for the riichi stick. That was some quick revenge.
Additional comments:
I am not surprised that Hisa's mental trick didn't work. There is this tiny problem with tricks - it only works effectively if you didn't know that there is a trick involved. Since, Saki is essentially trying to trick herself, then its effectiveness would probably be reduced. In fact, I would hazard to guess that Saki doing Hisa's mental trick is more of a handicap than anything else in this match. Even when Saki first used it, it was remarked to be quite a feat to achieve. And now, with the "trick" revealed to Saki- most of its effectiveness is probably gone. It probably didn't help Saki's mental state either when it failed; ultimately causing Saki to do +/-zero as a comfort blanket.
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Okay, this really helps explains Saki being afraid of Kyouko, this also makes me think if Saki was to try and use Hisa's mental trick against Shizuno, she would lose, badly.
Something else I wanted to add to how I noticed how Saki and Teru both had winning strikes in their styles, Saki's last win against Koromo was a 4 melded Kans, a yakuman hand, and Teru is theorized to be able to get a Nine Gate yakuman, so it seems that the Miyanaga sibilings winning strikes all end with yakuman hands.
Does anyone have any guesses as to who the other 3 yakuman in the tournament, you know the yakumans mentioned in chapter 15 on page 15, I'm guessing 2 of them came from Rinkai and Usuzan, but that doesn't tell me where the other one comes from.
Also just wondering but has anyone complied a list of points that characters lose and win for each round for every match, or does someone want to do that?
And I don't mean the total amount of points earned and lost overall, I want to know points gained and lost for each round in a match.
Finally I would like to add that Yuuki is the anti-Teru, since Yuuki is most dangerous during the east round and will actively seek to drop someone below 0, just how Teru becomes the most dangerous in the final round. Plus with Sumire having a tell, I'm guessing that Mako willbe able to spot it, since she uses matches from her memory to help her play.
P.S Sorry for the long post but you guys really know how to get a debate going.
Last edited by Bladezer; 2012-12-02 at 18:11.
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