[Triple_R]

NCP, my reply to you is fairly long, so I'm putting it in spoiler space below.

Spoiler for My reply to NCP:

Originally Posted by NCP

Unfortunately, I think I'm going to have to disagree with you almost entirely on these points you bring up. To begin with, I think you'll agree that it is not the narratives job to be fair in its portrayal of every single character.

Not every single character, no. But with the most important/plot-influencing ones, yes, I'd like the narrative to be fair with them.

As others have noted, the story is framed through Oreki's point of view.

And like I pointed out, there are scenes where Oreki is not on camera. If you're going to have such scenes, why not use them to better present the points of view of other characters?

The Saki franchise does this marvelously. There's no reason Hyouka couldn't.

The episode is brooding, Oreki spends half the episode with a shadow covering his eyes, and directorial touches such as the "camera" shaking during his chat with Irisu and Satoshi's voice being muffled when he calls out to him all do an excellent job of letting us know just how Oreki is feeling.

That's partly what I meant by the direction of this episode portraying Irisu in an entirely negative light. The Oreki/Irisu confrontation was a bit over-the-top, in my view. Everything else I was entirely cool with (as far as drama and tone is concerned, at least), but this one scene went too far, imo. It was acting like Irisu is absolutely menacing, and that's just not a fair portrayal of her character.

But even then, I find it very hard to agree with your claim that the narrative is out to get Irisu. In fact, I'd argue that the narrative was very fair in its treatment of her. Any negative characteristics that she may have shown in the episode are entirely on the shoulders of Irisu herself.

Consider this. As someone else pointed out, Irisu is a very "the ends justify the means" type of person.

But that's just it. She's not just "The ends justify the means" type of person. If she was, she would have been more blunt and straightforward with Hongou, and not went through all sorts of hoops to avoid offending Hongou. Anh_Minh pointed out very well how Irisu showed considerable care for the feelings of others.

That being said, I can totally understand why you, or anybody else, would leave this arc with the impression that Irisu is a "Ends justify the means" type of person. Because that's the light the anime put her in, and that's much of what I'm critiquing here.

And this is exactly what happens. As was shown in episode 10, everyone loved the movie. In fact, they were going to have a party to celebrate its success. Now, don't you think that if the narrative were really attempting to cast Irisu in a negative light, then it would have made the movie a failure instead, in spite of Irisu's best efforts?

No, this way is even worse on Irisu, imo.

"Even if you succeed, you're still wrong for doing things this way, Irisu."

That's one of the sharper messages that I see coming out of this episode, and this arc as a whole.

If Irisu didn't achieve her desired ends, you could simply fault her basic competency. This way, her core character is challenged and critiqued.

As it turns out, at the end of the day, Irisu wasn't affected negatively at all by what transpired with Oreki.

You don't think she was rattled badly by Oreki's confrontation, and then by the online chat at the end?

Personally, I think she was rattled badly. And that's another reason why I think she isn't a "Ends justify the means" sort of person. Irisu would not have been rattled badly if she didn't care about Oreki or Hongou.

Instead it was Oreki who bore the brunt of the effects of her actions, what with his completely shot self-esteem and all. This narrative was not about pointing out whether "the ends justify the means" attitude is wrong or not.

I think the narrative is saying that manipulation is wrong, period, end of story. Even with the best of intentions, even if you care about other people, you should never be manipulative. Even the whitest of lies should be avoided.

It's a bold stance in its firmness, actually. But personally, I can't help but feel it's a bit overly idealistic.

Furthermore, you say that her portrayal was very "black-and-white". Once again, I must respectfully disagree. Notice that during their final confrontation, Oreki never once accuses her of wrong-doing. He does not blame her for the fact that he feels like crap.

I think that's implicit in the degree of anger displayed in his questioning of her. Now this might be more on KyoAni than on the source material, in fairness.

Oreki was not aggressively pressing her to admit she was wrong.

But he was aggressively pressing her for something. That alone is telling, imo.

Now for the directing. You say it works to present Irisu in a negative manner, but does it really? As I'm sure you've noticed, Hyouka has shown a tendency to play with light quite a bit. Take a look at these images.

Spoiler for Image:

Here we see Irisu helping Hongou out of the darkness and into the light.

I interpreted that as Hongou darkening due to Irisu's impact on her. You could even say that Irisu is "stealing her light away".

And finally, that chatroom scene. While even I'll admit that it was a pretty damning scene,

And given what came before it, I think it leaves no doubt as to what the anime wants the viewer to think of Irisu.

To end on a lighter note, I'll go ahead and say that I personally actually really like Irisu. I feel like the title of "Empress" fits her perfectly. I find her personality strong and refreshing. And of course, just like the world needs sensitive and empathetic people such as Hongou, it also needs those who can just get stuff done like Irisu.

Agreed. Which is why I'm disappointed that this anime chose to portray a person who's willing to be a little bit manipulative in order to get things done, in an entirely negatively light.

I'm going to make a confession here to try to better explain where I'm coming from. In high school, I was a Student Council President (and in College, I was involved in Student Councils in various executive positions). Managing people, especially fellow teenagers, is not always easy. A lot don't want to do any more school-related activities than what is absolutely necessary, and so it can be hard to get anything worthwhile off the ground at all.

Irisu's approach (trying to avoid offending people who's ideas you think just won't work, appealing to people's pride and self-esteem, twisting arms a bit) is often the only way you get anywhere, and I'm not sure if the writer for Hyouka understands that.

Originally Posted by Flower

Well, after watching ep 11 all I have to say regarding Irisu is "I told you so." But in the same light I think Oreki's older sister is equally manipulative, though in a different way and degree tempered by knowing what things are more important...

So having a lame student movie with a displeasing ending (based on a scenario that the students voted against) is Ok?

It is one thing to be "heartless" and put achieving goals and fulfilling responsibilities above all else - truly an "ends justify the means" p.o.v.; it is another thing to be inspired to do this because one feels moved to help someone in trouble (as Irisu did) and then manipulate and wound others.

And you think it's better to be totally heartless?

So you think it's better to be like, say, Kyubey or Lex Luthor than to be like Irisu?

Wow, Flower, I'm genuinely surprised by what you're saying here.

And I also completely disagree with you on it.

It's the truly heartless people that are the most dangerous, because you can't appeal to them emotionally or persuade them to feel empathy or sympathy for the people that they hurt. You can't change them. You'd have an easier time getting through to Irisu than you would getting through to Kyubey or Lex Luthor.