[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

speaking of which, what episode was this from

For those curious, it was ep 13, almost 14 minutes in.

Now, @Demi: Since our conversation is more of a comparison, I will make a post response in the other thread later.

@Triple_R: Our conversation has more to do with the movie itself and not as much of a comparison, so I think it is still okay to continue here. But there are two things I would like acknowledgement from you, before you read more into this post:

#1. You are aware that I said those are essentially potential cuts, essentially the maximum number of cuts I would make to free up some time. Depending on time needed, not all of them would be made. Please acknowledge this before you panic too much, so we can continue to have a nominal conversation.

#2. An understanding that you don't need to panic. You got what you wanted already, and you'll get more of it. Before you get really upset, realize that I have no power to alter what has already been done, nor what will happen in the 3rd movie, which will happen regardless of what you or I think. So calm down and try to understand, rather than blow a gasket.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I'm tempted to stop reading here.

My first thought was...seriously? Probably the most emotional and emotionally satisfying NanoFate scene in the entire movie?

The scene where Nanoha reunites with Fate is an absolutely key scene for NanoFate fans. To take away Fate's "We're Friends" rescue and to take this scene away as well - Frankly, that strikes me as downright cruel and heartless to NanoFate fans.

And what truly puzzles me is this - Why target this and not some of the lead-up that came before it? 4:28 to 6:20 is all lead-up to this one moment. Most of this lead-up turns into an absolutely horrible tease without the emotional payoff moment that you would axe out. 5:43 to 6:10 is just flashbacks and Nanoha running. There's almost thirty seconds right there, and I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to trim 10 to 15 seconds from the other scenes at Nanoha's home.

You think Nanoha and/or NanoFate fans would miss this more than they would the actual reunion scene between Nanoha and Fate?

I figured you'd have questions, and I was hoping you'd ask for clarification. As I mentioned in this post you are replying to, I'd rather go with Fate swooping in to rescue Nanoha as their first meeting. I liked that scene in the series, more than how it was done here, and I think you agreed with this sentiment at one point. Having Fate and Arf double-team Vita quickly and knock her into a building and put up binds; complete surprise attack. Signum and Zafira quickly intervene, but not soon enough to break the binds, thus Vita is out of the fight for awhile (though she gets back into it and double-teams Fate with Signum to put Fate down).

Nanoha running, I could cut. In fact, good catch. The wake up part, was a concession to leave, because it shows that Nanoha is looking forward to meeting Fate that day... I'm just having the meetup happen later.

Kaijo, I have to be frank - It's like you're either intentionally trying to destroy NanoFate, and are using "The plot, the plot! Everything for the plot!" as a pretext for doing so. Or you just don't get the emotional side of this movie at all (at least from the perspective of a NanoFate fan).

Let me be clear: I don't give a damn who my axe falls on, because yes, I am more concerned with the plot of the movie then anything else. And we all knew things would have to be cut to fit into an A's movie. In that light:

Hayate is vital to the plot
The Wolks are vital to the plot
Reinforce is vital to the plot
The Book of Darkness is vital to the plot
Chrono and Lindy's emotions I consider vital to the plot, given their connection
Nanoha is NOT that vital
Fate is NOT that vital
Yuuno is NOT that vital
Leti is NOT that vital

Sure, the "not vital" people still have some roles, but they are also looked at harder when something needs to be cut. The only reason that people like Yuuno and Leti didn't have more cut, is that they didn't have much to begin with. Although, as I said, I am considering ways to cut Leti out totally. Perhaps have Chrono see the book as he does in the series, instead of being briefed. As much as I hate Nanoha's early SLB being cut, it is a sacrifice I am willing to make for the plot. I'm upset, but I understand. THAT is what I'd like to see from other people.

I'm going to see which of the two it is with this question - Are you willing to keep the NanoFate reunion scene if we take away the flashback/Nanoha running bit and 10 to 15 seconds more of the lead-up that lead to it? Better to have short lead-up and an actual and wonderful payoff than careful and smooth lead-up that goes absolutely nowhere...

Oh, it goes to Fate swooping in to rescue Nanoha, as what I wanted to do above. It's build up, but also in a heart-breaking way that is more emotional. I liked the hospital bed NanoFate scene in the series, where Fate comes in to visit Nanoha, far more than the park reunion. You could feel more complex emotions going on in that scene. It would have been something I was mentally tossing around about adding; a scene where Nanoha and Fate wake up together in hospital beds that are next to each other. Add in complex emotions, tearful reunion, and fade out with Nanoha reaching out to grasp Fate's hand to reassure her (because Fate thinks she failed).

But if you'd rather have your park scene....

Let's look at the 44 seconds that came before it. First, a brief and throwaway bit focusing on a DAB ship out in space, and Chrono and his girlfriend talking about Nanoha and Fate's reunion. You'd leave this in, but take out the actual reunion. I have to say, if your intention is to destroy NanoFate, I'm genuinely impressed at the pure evil genius of leaving this bit in given that you've just removed the NanoFate reunion itself. Talk about heart-wrenching tease! We have 2 minutes of lead-up to the reunion, and Chrono/his girlfriend talk about the reunion, but we don't show the actual reunion.

I thought about it, but it does establish that Fate is on her way to visit Nanoha. I'd probably adjust it to have them on the way as well (to visit Lindy) but well behind Fate, so they arrive later to back up Lindy in driving the Wolks off.

Somewhere I imagine a colorful theatrical villain, who also happens to be a Nanoha/Yuuno shipper, laughing maniacally.

You haven't read my fics, or you'd know better.

After this Chrono/girlfriend bit (that doesn't tie in to any aspect of the plot of this movie except, ironically, the Nanoha/Fate reunion) we have a short Lindy/Alph moving scene. Because seeing Nanoha and Fate's reunion is obviously less important than watching two random guys move around mattresses while Lindy and Alph exchange a couple smiles/blushes (seriously, there's no dialogue worth mentioning here at all).

Establishes that the Harleowns are moving into the neighborhood. But you're right, I could cut this out, too. But given that the Harleowns do end up moving into the neighborhood while the Arthra is being refitted, I figure it had to happen eventually, and might as well do that at the start. I hope this explains why this scene was kept because, yes, it was plot relevant.

I continue to be impressed with your attempt to destroy NanoFate (if that is indeed what it is). The two best NanoFate bits in the entire movie are now gone thanks to you. But teasing remains. Such pure, evil genius!

Understand that you seem to think NanoFate and NanoFate fans are destroyed by the loss of 2.5 minutes of their screentime. Before you knew the movie existed, were NanoFate and their fans "destroyed"? If you can answer yes to this, I'll concede your point. But if you can't give up 2.5 minutes, and can't see how how emotionally invested you are to be unable to let go... Though, if you care to explain how these scenes are important to the Book of Darkness plot, feel free. But I might save you the trouble and say, "Sure, fine, we'll keep these 2.5 minutes if it makes you feel happy. I think I can still do my changes with the 8.5 minutes I have left."

And here, you're taking away some of the precious little screentime that Suzuka and Arisa have.

Has it occurred to you that this might actually hurt the plot? I'm pretty sure that with your edits, Suzuka's first scene in the movie will be her befriending Hayate. Given how minor a character Suzuka is, a lot of people aren't going to remember the Nanoha/Suzuka connection without Suzuka showing up in the movie before Suzuka and Hayate's befriending scene. The significance of Suzuka befriending Hayate may well be lost for viewers who are caught up in the action of the movie, and have temporarily forgotten just who this purple-haired girl is.

As you said, Suzuka is important, because she is the connection between Hayate and Nanoha/Fate. Sad to say, Arisa isn't important. And remember that the A's movie isn't for new viewers; it's for people who have already seen the series. Too much is cut that a new viewer would likely be confused by things anyway. The new viewers I showed the 1st movie to, were confused by a few things, like Arisa's behavior; I had to explain that it was explained better in the series.

But part of cutting this, would also be to expand Suzuka's library scene with Hayate, helping to develop their friendship to the level where Suzuka would bring her friends to the hospital. Other than a sudden, "Oh, Suzuka met this person and has known them all of 10 seconds, and is thus really buddy-buddy with them."

I thought you might cut this down. Because even I'd admit that they are a bit more elaborate than they need to be. But I didn't think you'd remove them entirely. A magical girl movie without any magical girl transformation scene for either of the two main protagonists... wow. And Nanoha is now guaranteed to get one-upped by Madoka Magica in an area that, like it or not, is important to many magical girl genre fans.

Probably. I suppose I could deal with 30 seconds for both transformations (15 seconds a piece) to make it quick, and hopefully non-pedo. At least, I really hope you're not arguing for the pedo aspects, like up close ass and crotch shots with nipples while clothes disappear.

It's at this point that I realize that you expect Nanoha and Fate to sacrifice a helluva lot more than you do the Wolkenritter. All those Wolkenritter fluff scenes go entirely untouched (and like it or not, many of them are cute fluff scenes), but NanoFate are expected to lose arguably its two best scenes in the entire movie.

Because those Wolkenritter scenes are important to the plot. The movie needs to show that Hayate has built a close bond with them, such that they feel compelled to break her order to try and save her life. And to be blunt: this is Hayate and the Wolks movie, more than anyone else, even Nanoha. Much as I like Nanoha more than Hayate, I recognize that the needs of Hayate outweigh my wants. That is my logic.

I don't particularly care. But at this point, I seriously wonder "What's the real point of this all?".

Kaijo, this scene touches directly on Lindy coming to terms with the death of her husband. It's actually part of the reason why I felt you were understating the degree of focus Lindy/Chrono get in this movie.

Isn't the whole point of this slice-and-dice exercise to get more time to devote to Lindy/Chrono focus as it pertains to how The Book of Darkness took their husband/father away?

What exactly are you trying to save up these minutes for? A really big, long, elaborate gravesite scene for Chrono/Lindy?

Yes, actually. I'd rather have an actual grave site visit where there is a little talking, and more movement. I detailed a bit of this before, but I'd like to see Lindy and Chrono kneeling, incense burning, Fate and Arf standing to the side. Perhaps they say a few words. Then Lindy gestures for Fate and Arf to come forward and join then, which they do nervously. And Lindy introduces Fate to Clyde, saying, "This is our new daughter and her friend/pet, Fate and Arf. They are a part of our family now." Something like that. And Fate can say something like, "Pleased to meet you, Mr. Harleown. I am honored to join your family, and hope I can prove worth of it." Then maybe have Chrono finally open his eyes and turn, an say with a smile, "I think you already have." (Because she would have saved him from the dream eater earlier)

There is something that I want to say here.

Plot is important. But is it more important than emotionally engaging the audience? Because many of the scenes that I found the most emotionally engaging, and probably about half of the most emotionally satisfying moments in the entire movie for me, are moments that you have slated to axe. And I'd say that most Nanoha and Fate fans would agree with me on that. And that's most Nanoha fans in general, of course.

And I'd say "vocal minority" as we always like to believe that people on our side are in the majority. Hell, I might even concede that 51% of people are in it solely for NanoFate... but I know quite a few NanoFate fans, who also want to see the other characters develop; they aren't shallow enough to prize what they like over the good of the series. So I'd say a majority of NanoFate fans would side with me!

But these are merely opinions we both carry, and we each like to believe we hold the more correct view, ya?

I think that plot is important, but when you prioritize it this much over emotional engagement, I think there's a good chance you end up with a final product that feels very cold. Something that feels a bit heartless and soulless.

And I think that the net effect of your changes would be to make Nanoha and Fate seem rather shallow relative to Hayate and the Wolkenritter (who aren't asked to sacrifice a single second of their 'fluff' scenes together). I think this could skew perception of the two competing sides in a way that's very unflattering to Nanoha and Fate.

And when looking over what I've wrote in this post, and the emotional cost of your changes, I can't help but strongly feel "It isn't worth it".

I really do think it just isn't worth it. Not simply for a bit more Chrono/Lindy focus and plot focus.

In my view, the plot is mildly improved while the emotional engagement aspect of the film is halved (at best) or gutted, at worst.

So in the end, I disagree with you, Kaijo. And I think that my reasons for disagreeing with you are much more legitimate than how you have framed them.

Let me use your own arguments and words, and ask: Why are you being such a killjoy? Why are you trying to kill any aspect of Chrono/Fate? What about fans of Chrono and Fate? I mean, even if we do all of my cuts, Nanoha and Fate still have MANY scenes together (and would get even more with my changes). They still develop their relationship.

You know how many scenes Fate and Chrono have to develop their relationship?

Zero.

Zilch.

Nada.

None.

Hell, Fate's relationship with Signum was heavily cut in this movie, and I'd argue that is a very important relationship that could only really be developed here. So, to use Fate's words, "Stop being selfish!" You're getting plenty of candy already, and when people voice an opinion that they'd like a piece or two of candy as well, your response is, "NO! My Candy! Stop killing my joy!"

Can you not afford to share some candy? Or are you like Reinforce, who prizes the well-being of one, over the destruction she'd bring to the entire world in the process, which prompts Fate's line?

And as I have mentioned many times, you are already getting what you want anyway, so why worry at all? Chrono and Lindy are done; this was their only real moment to shine, and to have their first beginning moments of a family with Fate shown to us. From here on, they will just be assumed to be a family, with none of the close beginning bonding moments (something like the series had with Lindy buying a cell phone for Fate). In the next movie, unless the new antagonist has something to do with Lindy and Chrono (other than their role as DAB officers), I'll agree there that their role should probably be kept to a minimum and they don't need development.

So, given that you got what you wanted already, and are going to get a whole lot more while everyone else gets deprived, can you not at least show some empathy and go, "Yeah, your situation sucks, and I wish we all could have gotten something good out of this movie" ? Or do you want to be a killjoy and say, "No, you don't get what you'd like" ?

We already lost Graham and the Lieze twins, and Hayate's complex relationship with that, forever ruining that particular relationship.
We don't have, and never will, Chrono and Hayate chatting it up and connecting as friends over a shared loss (they both lost someone to the book)
We don't have Chrono and Fate.
We barely have Fate and Lindy

And you want them all those potential relationships to go to hell, because one relationship that has already gotten TONS of development, and will get TONS more, can't even give up a few minutes?