[Xander]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Looking at Code Geass it could have been one of the greatest anime series ever made, and equal to Tomino's best work (Z Gundam, MSG, Turn A Gundam) but instead either due to incompetence (Knights of the Round where horribly handled), or due to executive Meddling (too many Britannian pilots in the first place) it was just medicore.

I've already said I don't believe in the concept of something being the "greatest anime series ever made" so there's little to add without being redundant. I can enjoy something like Geass without being so demanding. I think there are indeed mediocre and even awful aspects to the story, but I do appreciate the ones that stand out above that.

However...from the days of obscure IRC chat rooms to date I've always thought Zeta Gundam was overrated and is actually a mess in its execution, not unlike how you're describing Code Geass, but that's a completely different can of worms. I think nostalgia, historical influence and the "wow" factor is what colors the popular discourse about ZG and makes people forget its flaws. The original Gundam suffers from a few problems too, if you think about the TV series and not the movie adaptation which made it into a much more effective story. Again, its influence on the Real Robot genre is probably what makes people overlook the finer details.

Originally Posted by Frostfire

A lot of the shiny mecha, especially the pink Lancelot of all things, only existed for the same reason that GOLDEN Akatsuki existed in GSD. To sell. .

Let's look at MSG, ZG and ZZ for a minute...Fanservice? Check. There are even a number of scenes that serve no other purpose other than, at best, comedy relief. Some completely unnecessary nudity too. Shiny mecha meant to sell model kits? Check. Lots of them. Tons of enemy mobile suits/armors of the week. Transformation sequences and shiny support units. Characters meant to appeal to a certain audience? Check. Some of them may meet a horrible fate but they're still there. They're all present if you don't magically erase them from your mind.

I'd say Turn A is an exception, in the sense it was strangely commercially unappealing in several ways, but let's not pretend this is somehow unique to Geass.

As far as my own ranking goes, Turn A > MSG movies > MSG TV > ZG TV > ZZ TV. I still sat down and watched all of Zeta, several years ago, just like I watched all of Geass. Heck, I even endured the most ridiculous episodes of ZZ, which were worse than the Ashford antics in Geass, until the show began to pick up. If I just wanted to watch "masterpieces" I'd have dropped ZZ and even ZG but I didn't.

If you take the show, and strip away the unneccesary and irrelevant characters, you are left with a pretty small, modestly developed cast. The problem is, that's not what the show was, it was an avalanche of uselessness leading to mediocrity all around for every character except those with twin initials or Suzaku. Some important characters lost time where things could be explained... for... basically nothing.

You do have a point, in the end, but again...do you demand absolute excellence from every single show you watch and are unable to appreciate the good things even in the middle of mediocrity?

I can't believe you haven't seen, and enjoyed to a greater or lesser extent, other shows with a similar "avalanche of uselessness" from a purely critical perspective. I don't know if you'll admit it though.

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

The whole they didn't have time thing doesn't work when you compare it to stuff like Fullmetal Alchemist manga where people like Doctor Knox with the same amount of time as Gino and Anya is an incredibly well developed character who has some of the best scenes in the series.

Comparing a TV series to a manga, not just a short spin-off but a long running original work like FMA, isn't exactly what I would call appropiate. The mangaka can take years to plan and write what a TV series needs to accomplish in weeks, or months at most. Leaving extremely long franchises like Bleach and Naruto aside, but even those have to resort to intolerable filler when they're put on TV.

Once again, I still don't think all series require all of their elements and characters to be properly developed for the core story to be effective or simply enjoyable. It's a plus, not a must.

My biggest dissapointment is that it never gave off the feel that Lelouch created a new era, none of the other Black Knights where competent so you don't see them in leadership positions except for Kaguya, and Ougi, and Ougi is completely incompetent for that position. The Britannian leadership is in shambles except for the royal family itself, and the other nations are in shambles as well since the EU lost the war, and generally you have leadership problems when that happens.

I see a couple of scripting issues there but not the same ones you do. For reasons already mentioned before, I don't think a detailed procedural "this is how the world was rebuilt" documentary was required. Not that they had enough time to include it, although that is of course a planning flaw we can blame on Sunrise, Bandai and the staff.

But the new era, to use your terms, isn't something that needed to be expanded upon too much. It's an opportunity that has been created, even for individuals like Ougi and the Black Knights, not an end to all difficulties.

Britannia is in shambles, yes, but Lelouch did destroy the old aristocracy by essentially ruling as an autocrat and I would say that was an intentional part of his plan. The Britannian power vacuum was filled by Nunnally and the UFN can gather around Zero. There's also slave Schneizel if you want to count that.