[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

Those sites usually end with "and there are more...", so, where? I think some people within Scientology is exploiting its principles and get away with it (isn't this the same with the child abusing priests? they get away with it). If you have thousands of people inside, it isn't that hard to find such people. Maybe I saw many examples of such organizations in my country, that I somehow got used to it. But, as it is the case for those organizations, a majority of the people inside are most probably happy. Probably, many enter to make money by giving money and using connections. Too bad, it doesn't always work.

Sazelyt, do you know about the history of Scientology? It was created almost 50 years ago. There are policies within this organization that specifically dictate that detractors of the religion should be harassed, and that they can even be "destroyed" (that is the actual word used). This is the famous "fair game" policy, although now it is called something else, apparently.

You brought up child-abusive priests as a comparative example. It is not a valid comparison. I would argue that a priest who abuses a child is not really abusing the religion itself - they are abusing their position, perhaps. However, they are also isolated cases. If there were a secret policy within the Christian churches, stating that young boys should be molested, then we could compare it to Scientology. All of these horrible things that Scientology does are not built into the religion, but they are built into its governing body. This is not a case of one or a few men trying to abuse their positions of power, this was stuff dictated by the founder of the Church of Scientology himself.

Why do people enter the CoS? The tactics employed by the organization are very well-known. They specifically seek out people who are having a problem in their lives and sell them Scientology as something that is something of a life improvement course. Communication courses, courses on how to have a happy marriage - that sort of stuff. People really get into it and feel that it's improving their lives. As they're doing this, they're slowly having their reality stripped away by each course, and replaced with the reality of Hubbard. Scientology's core believe is that we are all infested with intergalactic parasites called Thetans, and that the evil lord Xenu stuffed us all in a volcano and blew us up. That's their creation story. But followers of Scientology will not find this story out until they reach the end of these courses (which they must pay for, of course). This is an incredibly shady way of going about getting people involved in a religion, don't you think? Sure, Christianity also has help groups for people who are at low points, but the Bible is available to everyone and I don't believe that the Christian Church (or any other mainstream religion) brainwashes people.

Sorry, I don't buy the first excuse, but the second one seems just about right. To me, it is also very simple. They don't have the strength or power to fight the other corruptions, cause, it is possible, it would cost them a lot more if they choose such path. That is possible one of the reasons, why I don't like this kind of organizations that use such claims. Either be consistent or tell the truth - sorry, we are okay with all the other corruptions and we don't give a damn about whoever suffers as a result of those corruptions, as long as we are happy, who cares, I personally don't - kind of.

I don't think I quite understand - you seem to be angry that participants of Anonymous are not openly willing to become martyrs, is that it?

It is more like those freedom fighters, love the word and the way it has been exploited over the years, determined a target they hate. Kind of like personal hatred nothing more.

No, it's not freedom fighters. This is activism, where people raise awareness about a problem in order to affect social change. If they were trying to call themselves freedom fighters they'd likely be bombing churches and justifying it as some sort of holy war.

I don't know if they ever thought that, but, maybe that management actually represents the Scientology version of the Catholic Church hierarchy. Have they ever thought about getting rid of Catholic priests, despite what happened in the past? I highly doubt that.

You are free to make a comparison between the two, but I believe the comparison is flawed.

The Catholic Church's greatest sins are arguably the Crusades. However, these occurred hundreds of years ago. Are you suggesting that we should hold every current organization accountable for things that happened lifetimes ago? Or perhaps you weren't thinking about the Crusades, and you were thinking about the current plague of scandals involving the molestation of children by priests? As I stated above, the molestation is not church policy. It's a corruption, but why it's occuring isn't clear - it could mean that the church probably needs to be better about selecting who can be a priest, or it could be that the priests are unhappy. There's no clear cause, and thus nothing that people can really do. The actions of those priests are not church policy, nor do they represent all members of the church. It isn't a valid target.

Now let's go back to the Church of Scientology. There are harmful directions in the doctrines that the CoS runs on, plain and simple. The management of the CoS is guilty of following those doctrines and not reforming them. The current wave of activism is focused on either dissolving the management, or forcing it to reform those harmful practices out of the group.

That is more like anonymous wants to act the second god for the organization. Scientology might be problematic, but the opposing view is not a lot different...

Could you elaborate on this a bit further? I don't quite understand what you mean when you say that Anonymous wants to act the second god for the organization.

That is the reason I consider them as a weak organization, in both ideal and action. In my country, there is a single girl, who opposed a similar organization despite the pain she suffered (because of having to deal with countless of trials she had to go through), still, at the end, her sufferings made sure a lot of people have heard about her case. Why can those guys not show the same courage, if they really believe Scientology is a threat?

They are showing courage, and it is precisely because they view the CoS as a threat that they are using masks.

Just to make sure that we are all on the same page here, I want to speak a little bit about America and the current culture. Are you aware of the RIAA (Recording Industry Association of America)? They have become quite famous in recent years for suing every single person they find on a peer-to-peer network. They aren't suing people because they want to make their money that way, but because they hope that the threat of a lawsuit will frighten people enough to not go on those networks. If you're in Europe, I've heard that the loser of a lawsuit must pay the legal fees of both parties. In America, you must hire your own lawyer, and whether you're innocent or guilty you must pay your legal fees. You can countersue for those legal fees, but then you're spending even more time in court. Any court time means a higher fee for the lawyer, and lawyers are not cheap. Time spent in court is also time not spent making money, or enjoying yourself. America is the land of lawsuits, at present.

Scientology is notorious for hiring private investigators to find out who you are and to dig into your life. Please review the case of Paulette Cooper and Operation Freakout. Cooper is a critic of Scientology. She wrote a book exposing them as a cult. She was put through NINE LAWSUITS for her work. The CoS even went so far as to use Cooper's own typewriter to type out a death threat, in an attempt to frame Cooper. Are you starting to see that this organization is relatively ruthless?

More recently, the CoS has apparently placed a bounty on participants of Anonymous. I don't know what the exact terms are, but I believe that in exchange for revealing the identity of a single Anonymous participant, you will be given $5,000 USD. The CoS will likely use the information either to have lawsuits filed against the individual, or to perform character assassination (bringing up any bad things that the person did to light) to that individual. That can destroy your life.

I don't know, maybe where you come from organizations do this sort of thing regularly. Maybe you aren't impressed, and you don't feel that this sort of thing is incredibly vile. But to those of us in America, this is simply unreal. We've become used to lawsuits, but never for simply speaking out against something. It's not illegal, but it's clearly a violation of the rights that our society was based off of. And to those participants risking themselves, their families, their futures, this requires courage and cunning. If you participate and essentially shoot yourself in the face just because you wanted to be a hero - well, you won't be able to contribute much to the movement if the CoS convinces everyone that you're a pedophile, now, will you? No, this is the power of anonymity. The CoS can't attack any of its detractors this way, but the critics can freely distribute information about the CoS regardless.

Again, why they only talk about getting physical? More like they want to put Scientologists in George Clooney's situation, by staying within the boundries of the law, increasing tension to the level of getting hit, or vice versa. Why don't they go to trials? If Scientology is guilty of a lot of crimes, as they claim, they should be able to win at least one case right?

In America, this isn't the way it works. Please look up the death of Lisa McPherson. She was killed because of the actions of the CoS. The CoS was taken to court on two charges, one of which included unlawful practice of medicine without a license. The McPherson family were on the other end of the lawsuit. The lawsuit lasted for about two or four years, I believe, and ended up being settled out of court. That means that the McPhersons and the CoS agreed to their own terms and dropped the lawsuit. Nobody knows that those terms were - did the CoS pay the McPhersons a sum of money? Were they threatening to harass the family unless they dropped the lawsuit? And as I mentioned before, lawyers are not cheap. The CoS certainly has more monetary resources than a single family, and they can draw the lawsuit out for years if it pleases them - the opposing family will eventually be unable to retain their lawyer because it becomes too expensive.

That is how it works in American law. Unfortunately, he who has the greater resources often wins, even if the facts are against them. Anonymous should show up at court cases? What difference would it make - just by being observers they're not on the jury, and their opinions aren't being made known. Also, what court cases - there aren't any right now. Anonymous is currently attempting to bring to light some of the shady activities of the organization and get the FBI to investigate them again, and maybe have the IRS revoke their tax exempt status (which the CoS sued them to achieve - are you getting a feel for how lawsuits come into play here?).

If you are fighting a group that plans to become a religion, putting yourself out there is the path you should take. Otherwise, what you do will not have any major impact. And, that means, if your goal is having a major impact, and you work choosing a path that is very likely to not succeed, then, why continue to play.

I disagree, and it's as simple as that. If the participants show their faces, it wouldn't make a difference as opposed to if they were wearing masks. People are doing something and making information known, that's the important part. They're raising awareness. The only difference it would make is to people who confuse the mask with cowardice and feel that these people are not dedicated to their cause.

Allow me to state this again: Anonymous is not a corporation, it is not an organized group. It is made up of individuals. If the CoS targets any single individual, it's over for that individual - the CoS has infinitely more resources than any single participant likely has, and it is almost certain that the CoS can both legally and illegally ruin their life. If a CoS member does anything bad, nothing terrible will happen - there may be a lawsuit between two individuals (but probably not), and it will result in a bad image for the CoS. But do you see that the risks involved are very unbalanced? Someone in Anonymous could have their life ruined, vs. a bit of bad PR for the CoS?

If you ask me, I think you'd have to be stupid to put yourself out there for the CoS. Their tactics are known, and they have proven that they are willing to do some very vile things. If you want to dedicate your life to this specific cause alone, then take the mask off. Be targeted, and make the fight personal - make it a part of your every day life. Yes, that's dedication. However, I think many people realize that there are more issues that they can be involved in, and they don't want to stop here. And honestly, even if they aren't willing to make themselves martyrs for the cause, is it any less admirable? People are standing up to something negative within society that has killed people and ruined the lives of others. You're telling me that just because they're confronting the beast with a shield, that they're cowards and their cause is worthless?