Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem
You're on the defensive already 
That's not the point that I was making, nor was anyone else in the thread. Of course you can be manipulated by factors outside of religion. People routinely are. The difference is that with religion it's much easier. If you have a strong enough faith, then you don't need to be bribed or otherwise forced to do something. If your religious leader tells you to do something, or if you have a "vision" and believe it to be God telling you to do something directly, you're going to do it (unless you question your faith, which is something that is not often encouraged).
No athiest ever started a holy war. (Not yet, anyway - I won't say it's impossible.)
That's not the point. Leaders who are religious are potentially quite dangerous. Remember George Bush saying something about how God had told him that it was right to start up a war in the Middle East? Imagine if all of America were deeply religious: Oh, God spoke to our president, therefore it must be true! To the death, then, that we should all start war in the Middle East and kill every infidel who opposes us! Aren't you glad that we have some non-devout (although not necessarily athiest) people in this nation?
That is the danger. Any idiot can have a dream, but it takes a religious idiot to think that it was a dream sent by God and that there was some message in it with an order that overrides all common sense, morals, and ethics. When that religious idiot is in a powerful position, and when the other religious idiots go along with his dream, you're potentially in big trouble. |
Of course I was quick to be defensive, too many people are too biased against religion. *snicker*
Number one, if you say religion makes manipulation easier, that still isn't the fault of a particular religion. This isn't a failing of a religion, this is a failing of corrupt men. It only makes manipulation easier because so many people deeply value religion and/or spirituality. That is not the fault of religion and spirituality, and these things being used to manipulate people for bad agendas is indeed a very immoral thing.
Atheists never started holy wars, but they've started wars. And they can declare war over ideologies and principles they strongly believe in and push upon their societies.
Also, Bush doesn't represent all Christians, not by a long shot.
Religion, on the whole (please note that), spirituality, and the masses that abide to religion aren't really to blame with the whole "religion is dangerous and a plague to our planet" bull****. Those things stand for a lot of good, and many spiritual practicioners are good people that stand for good things. You wanna be mad at someone, be mad at the people pulling the strings of people, making them into puppets, for their own twisted agendas.
Now don't get me wrong, I defend these things for getting too much flak, but I myself hate to see the manipulation taking place. I think there is much good to Christianity, and I'm frustrated to see many Christians being unfair in their thinking; quick to judge, vehemently opposing things they are told to without really forming their own opinions, being intolerant without taking the time to really think on a particular issue, and so on. Islam actually has some really good qualities, but the
organized religion of Islam of today is really in very bad shape.
My view is some people are just too biased against religion and so on. What I'd like to convey is that I myself see flaws in religion (much more so in certain ones than others) and can see how (again, as discussed earlier) it can be manipulated for bad means, but I really want some who are very anti-religious to try to see that there is a lot of good and merit to religion and spirituality. I definitely see the good things and acknowledge there are problems and that things can be exploited for bad ambitions. I want those who mostly see these things in a negative light to at least try to see more of the positive things and see things in a more balance and fair minded manner.
Also, something I noticed with most people who are anti-religious: Most of their complaints and arguments center around Christianity and Islam. I for one believe they've fallen off their true paths the most of all the major world religions. Especially Christianity in the middle ages and Islam in the modern day era. However, I personally think that the Eastern religions have done better in certain regards than the Western religions. Of course, things haven't been perfect with them; of course not. But I can't think of any holy wars started by people abiding to them (there was Jihad in India several centuries ago, but the Muslims instigated that). I'm not saying there weren't any at all, but there haven't been as many as the ones from the Western religions, and nothing on the scale of the crusades in the west/Middle East. Most wars in Asia have come down to warfare not centered on religion. Mostly about cultural and ethnic conflicts and socio-political conflicts. Groups of people engage in wars. Sometimes religion is in the equation, and sometimes it isn't.
Another thing I appreciate about Buddhism is that I think it is the religion that has practiced what it preaches the best (again, it is not perfect, by no means). Again, a lot of devoutly religious people and secular humanists and such butt heads, but for secular humanists, I encourage them to check out Buddhism and Taoism. I'm a spiritual person and value these religions and their philosophies, and I think atheists and agnostics can find value in their philosophies and teachings, which incorporate much logic and correlate well with science and scientific thought, and their ideas and teachings about ethics and good morals, which are mostly approached with logic.