[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

...Taking the a single point of a series arguably doesn't define it.

A fair point, but this wasn't the only reason I was failing to find much difference.

That's fallacy. You just cannot take someone else experiencing the same, but reacting differently and conclude "the situation doesn't suck" (be it in general or by that trope definition).
A situation is deemed X or Y, depending of the person affected by it. Otherwise, should a person A consider themselves "lucky" to earn xxxx$ per month, because a person B consider that lucky, because they earn a lower wage?

So, you'd have sympathy for the poor person crying that they only make $500,000 a year? Because the taxes on that kind of money is a real pain to handle. Where is the empathy there?

The fact Kyoko settled her mind doesn't make Sayaka's situation any less reasonable that it is. It may work for Kyoko, but that doesn't mean other girls would accept it readily like that.

It shows that it is possible to live with, and live quite well at that. If Kyoko was having a hard time accepting it, too, then I might start to see it. To keep using your money example.... How much sympathy do you have for someone who whines about paying taxes on their $100,000 a year salary? If it's shown that there are other people making that kind of money and living a nice life, then it kinda puts to lie to the idea that making $100,000 a year is somehow bad. Yeah, sure, Sayaka could honestly be broken up about only making $100,000 a year. But I wouldn't have much sympathy for that. Would you?

Except we also have a lot of examples defining a sheer difficulty for a character to accept that. It seems rather unreasonable to use outside example, and paste the situation over them.

One example: Sayaka. Kyoko and Homura have both accepted it, in albeit different fashions(And it didn't take Kyoko long). That's 2 out of 3 MG's.

The sole issue is that -she does not see her human any longer-. Period.
You may say that it is awesome, but I personally disagree: I can't imagine how awesome it is to be in some sort of avatar instead of being actually yourself.

Perhaps you honestly feel that way. But as I said above, I do not. I only said I am not convinced that this is all bad, and have listed ways that would convince me otherwise. And I have a majority of MG's in the series agreeing with me (who are aware of it).

As for Setsuna, what she says is a exclamation of her fear of rejection, because s

he isn't human. The fact she has powers isn't the issue, but the wings are a proof she isn't "human", which is the true issue. And as shown afterwards, she learns that people do not care that much if she is human or not, clearing her fears and mind.

And thus learns to accept herself as she is; something Sayaka needs to do. Hell, Setsuna goes on to smooch her love, too.

That doesn't make the character wrong by any means: it is something that is perfectly reasonable for people who fear rejection and the likes, and I see no reason to think that it is a stretch that someone can't see themselves as human as their peers.

I never said it made the character wrong; just that *I* didn't buy it as a bad thing. In all honesty, I felt she dealt with it well... right up until the end. If she doesn't get over this in the next episode, then it will come across as wangst to me. "Oh, poor me. I have some sort of disability (to me) therefore no one can love me."

I'm sorry, but she is definitely not the same biologically: Biologically speaking, a body cannot regenerate and so forth. You may say it is a semantic play, but that's the truth: she is not a human being, and the body itself is also attesting it.

It's the magic regenerating it. As Kyube says, the body still takes damage, but because the soul isn't in it, you can repair it easily. But what I'm referring to with this line of thought, is that nothing really has changed. She still eats, shits, and sleeps.

While I do not agree that a scar will turn someone less than human, some people will actually think so, and I can attest such occurences aren't so rare in reality (auto mutilation and so forth in psychiatric ward, burned people in an intensive care ward etc).

And again, that is in their mind, and for them to overcome. We ALL have things about ourselves we don't like. Does everyone break down into whiny angst over it? Being able to accept things about you, is also human. So in a way, Sayaka even asking herself these questions is proof that she's still human. If she throws that away as the ending psycho sequence demonstrates, then she'll have lost her humanity.

Using a trope is to begin with, rather dubious to begin with. Using it as reference may be fine to you, but you are actually using it as word of evangile, defining a situation as the trope sees it, ignoring completely the situation we have, portrayed by the author.

There is nothing good or bad about a trope. It's just a tool, and every show has them. I merely brought it up to illustrate my issue with the show. Hey, I can understand it would be upsetting to learn, but then you are left with two choices: accept it, or angst about it. Which option is the smarter one, I'll leave as an exercise to the reader.

As much as I find Sayaka flawed and that she had it coming, I believe the "angst" she has displayed is perfectly in line with the situation and character.
I would be otherwordly unatural for her to accept it as readily as Kyoko, or being able to cope it after Hitomi's ultimatum.

To a degree, I agree. She did seem to accept it and come out firm after a couple of days. Part of my issue is in the convenient timing of Hitomi's chat, Sayaka healthily dealing with it by recognizing her issues and having a good cry on a friend's shoulder... and then watching her instantly regress to psycho at the end. Kamijou got over his outburst, so I'll forgive her if she gets over it next episode (although at this point, I'm expecting more convenient outcomes designed to push Sayaka into full nutball territory).

Originally Posted by Vanish

Point taken. Though I would also like to point out that you (in my opinion) seem to be too rational about certain stuff as a cause. Our minds are on different levels I guess!

Heh, it's fine. People are different, after all. And I've tried to tell people several times that I am a coldly logical person. It's just who I am, and who I choose to be. We all have to find ways to deal with ourselves in this world, much like Sayaka does.

Yes, I would. With all my doubts I would. Not much I can add I think. Though since I'm an optimist I can say that blame should not be given for something that was not done. And actually, Madoka did indirectly ask things. They were rather rough and led by simple emotions though. Like "Can't you do something about this (to make them stop fighting)?" or "I wonder if I can just wish to become one?" Just saying, though. lol

You have a point, and it should be noted that Kyube was readily answering those questions. But her questions only came out in the heat of the moment. When the situation is calm, and she has time to think, she isn't asking any.

And sorry. My question was if other MGs in MG shows didn't also not ask all imaginable things.

Most ask the usual questions that would be expected. Also, from what I'm being told, Madoka is supposed to be somehow different, so I am expecting more from it. If they are going to take this more realistic, cynical approach to the show, then they need to follow through. They don't have the excuse of a more light-hearted idealistic show.