[Haak]

Ugh...

Spoiler for Tower of Text:

Originally Posted by Ice Block

Hence why he was actively denying his disappearance. He didn't want to disappear. He didn't think that he'd disappear. Furthermore, even if he did go through with the catch, there is no guarantee that he would disappear. All these are juxtaposed with him wanting to win the match.

AND I KEEP TELLING YOU THAT SHOULDN’T BE A FACTOR

He knows how to disappear, but he didn't go down that route. Does this not imply that his "true self" has significantly deprioritized his disappearance? Stop ignoring evidence. How can that be his true self when there wasn't even any buildup or reference to it which suggests this anywhere in the time before and after that event? If anything, that was a sign of abnormal behavior, along with his melancholic moments in that episode. See, reminiscing about your past =/= "true self" or w/e. Even his thought process in Track Zero is a far cry from that emotional Hinata in Ep04. Are you implying that he is one extremely dishonest fellow?

I’m entirely sure what that’s supposed to mean but I think I can guess. I already told you. You can have contradictory prioirites. I explained the rest already.
Actually him reminiscing about the past was the build up.

Experience. When you're already used to such phenomenon, you won't be surprised when such phenomenon happens again.

You’re only proving my point, you know. These are all external factors that explains why Yuri wasn’t surprised. So there’s no reason to say she wasn’t surprised because she knew it was going to happen.

Contradictory much? Anyway, reading Kanade's emotions is easy mode compared to, say, Nagato Yuki. Wanna see her looking surprised? Review the Naoi massacre -- her gestures imply as much when Naoi asks her if she's rebelling against God, and she widens her eyes in one shot during the hug. Mildly annoyed? Ep03, "It's almost like I'm the bad guy" scene. Slight interest? Ep06, when Otonashi begs her to help the SSS. Sadness? Right when she exclaims that there is no one she can call a "friend" in the afterlife. Reluctance/uneasiness? When Otonashi invited her to go fishing. Curiosity? Checking out the fishing materials. Anger/frustration? When she was charging against the first clone. And this is excluding everything after the Dark Archon merge in Ep08.

Yes these are all gestures. And you’re asking me to look at her facial expression.

Let me make this clear: If they weren't surprised, why did they act as if they didn't know why Iwasawa disappeared, and why did they act as if they did not expect her disappearance? Also, "casually remarking" =/= emotionless. Read my post again. Now, see the difference between Yuri's reaction and the guys'. Yuri acts as if she expected it to happen, and she claims that Iwasawa accepted it herself, thus it couldn't be helped. She may have been melancholic, but she certainly wasn't surprised.

I didn’t say they weren’t surprised. I said they were not surprised enough to make it a clear indication that Yuri should be surprised..
So you’re saying just because she was able to accept the true answer whilst the guys tried to question it, that means she knew beforehand? Nope. Anything could explain that. Infact you already did multiple times.

If she was already caught in the stimulator, she would have felt utmost pleasure from the start, similar to her expression just prior to disappearance.

But you said that once you’re ‘caught in the moment’ you’re caught in this stimulator thing. You also said that Iwasawa was ‘caught in the moment’ when she got angry and took her guitar back. So you’re saying that once you’re ‘caught in the moment’ that doesn’t neccessarly mean you’re caught in this stimulator thing? Aren’t you just making up rules at your convenience now?

You misunderstand. Did she think of disappearing during the concert proper? Nope. Did she think of disappearing during the teachers' intervention? Nope. Did she think of disappearing before she played My Song? Nope. Again: To be caught in the moment, you need to actively know what you're trying to avoid/prevent before you get engrossed in the activity. Perhaps we're arguing semantics, but saying Iwasawa was caught in the moment while playing My Song does not sit well with me.

I already told you that you don’t need to actively know beforehand. I already explained to you that she didn’t think of disappearing at any point because she wasn’t thinking about it and forgot about it. I’m asking why your interpretation is more credible that mine. But every indication you’ve given, I’ve already explained.

They're comparable because they represent two different situations that lead to the same result: disappearance. Furthermore, the real focus here was Hinata's situation. I brought up Iwasawa in order to compare the difference between the two events. If you're saying that Otonashi's question invalidates this, then know that Hinata was already nervously shaking even before their little chat -- that's the reason why Otonashi asked him about it in the first place. And, you misunderstand. I wasn't trying to prove whether Iwasawa knew she was gonna disappear or not. What I was trying to prove was that that last act, playing My Song, was somehow planned. Also, what I was saying was that if she was caught in the moment (for the whole duration of the song), she would have had thoughts of disappearing before she started playing it.

I honestly don’t know where to start, here. You’ve done a good job of making everything a mess again. I’m supposed to respond to this even though you haven’t actually given me anything to respond to. All you’ve given me is what i already know you think and for reason you seem to think my argument still doesn’t apply.

First of all, when i said they're not comparable, you know what I bloody meant.

Second of all, I know Hinata was already shaken up before the match. I know why Otonashi asked the question. That doesn’t change anything. He still knew beforehand. Iwasawa didn’t have that luxury. Therefore it’s unfair to say Iwasawa wanted it whilst Hinata didn’t just because Hinata denied he was going to disappear when Iwasawa didn’t have the luxury responding to a question like that. If you want to challenge that then you have to prove that Iwasawa knew she was gonna disappear. It may not be what you were trying to prove before but it’s what the argument comes down to. Why? She's not aiming to disappear. She's just aiming to get her bloody guitar back and play the damn song. She has no idea what she's doing. She doesn't realise she was about to obtain inner peace. Why would she? at what point was there any indication she would before being 'caught in the moment'? She just went for it without thinking, because she bloody felt like it. Why you think that isn't being 'caught in the moment' is beyond me.

Semantics. You're definition is slightly different (and more general) than mine, since I specifically stated that you needed to know what you were trying to avoid before so that you can legitimately get "caught". If you didn't know what you were trying to avoid, you're just being engrossed in the activity.

Well then I don’t see how this argument can get anywhere we already defining things our way. You've pretty much defined being 'caught in the moment' as having to know beforehand that it'll happen, even though my point is that they're not comparable because Iwasawa didn't know beforehand. Fine, use whatever terminology you feel like using. The point is that whatever happened to Iwasawa, she didn't see it coming. Just stick to that point.

Not relevant. You only need to know about it. Consider this:

party = playing baseball
drinking = disappearing

Catching the ball is part of the game. Hinata doesn't want to avoid that. However, he doesn't know that catching that ball would result in disappearance, and by the time it should have occurred to him, he was already caught in the moment. Same with the party -- chatting with people is part of the party, but he did not know that going to Table01 and chatting with person A, B and C will result in him taking a few shots (he could be lost in the conversation or peer pressured or w/e).

Oh come on. You can’t just say it’s not relevant. These are factors that affect whether you are caught in the moment or not. They are relevant because I’m arguing that these factors show that Hinata wouldn’t have been ‘caught in the moment’ unless he wanted to which is contrary to your point that he didn’t want to disappear. They are relevant whether you like it or not.

What? How can he not know? I can understand if he was unsure but not know? No, Hinata definitely DID know. Or are you suggesting that he forced it into his unconcious or something, and absolutely denied the possibility despite being nervous about it all for the sake of winning a freaking game. If that's the case then there was no need for him to go such extreme and could've just dropped out. "If it's immediately threatening to his life/existence and there's someone he really cares about (like Hinata) then i just can't see that happening." How is that factor not relevent? It's my entire argument. You're telling you can't avoid getting caught in the moment. Are you saying that's true in all cases? That's completely false. Are you saying only in some cases which involves factors not relevant to Hinata? Also false. These factors apply to Hinata. Don't pretend they don't.

What? Drinking =/= disappearing.
Drinking = Obtaining Inner Peace
Consequence of drinking = Disappearing.

Yes. But they were never meant to be a full-blown romantic pairing in the first place. All Hinata did at the end of Ep10 was prove Yui wrong. Yui x Hinata shippers are just exaggerating.

Are you referring to Hinata's close relationship with Yuri, and him being the co-founder of the SSS? I don't think so. Used, referenced -- learn the difference. And I already addressed this in that part you quoted.

If you want to prove how your interpretation is more credible than mine you’re gonna have to do better than that.
It’s an important factor in an event that occurred in the anime according to you. Therefore is was used.
No you didn’t. You simply said they had to give exposition on what they already gave in the Light Novels because of Otonashi. I’m saying Otonashi was used for that purpose. What you said doesn’t change the fact that they gave exposition regardless of what device they used.

Of course. Mind the timeline. Remember how relationships evolve? And, ho ho, are you saying that we should not apply human logic to these characters? Then this whole debate is pointless. And I never participate in serious shipping. My interests lie more in speculah.

So different that it shouldn’t have been a factor. That was my original point.
This is coming from a guy who tells me not to consider factors that would affect whether Hinata was 'caught in the moment' because they're "Not relevant". Lovely. In any case, it’s not human logic. There’s no such thing as human logic. It’s psychology. Relationships can evolve but not always. Logic implies that that it will without exception. We can apply logic because by definition, they are without exception. But that’s something else entirely.

Then why did you say that Hinata didn't know how to disappear? Why did you say that he didn't pick himself up, and that he only stuck to Yuri because he didn't know how to disappear (when he clearly knows otherwise)? Why are you saying that he cared more about his disappearance when he clearly never pursued it after his talk with Ooyama?

I never said he cared more about disappearing. He simply didn’t have the willpower to do it at the moment. My point is that his decision not to go through with it was not because of Yuri and her loneliness. He simply decided to help Yuri because he had nothing else to do, since he didn’t want o disappear. That’s quite different from him not wanting to disappear because of Yuri.

How shallow-minded. We don't observe the characters urinating or defecating, so they must not be doing it. We don't observe the characters changing clothes or taking baths, so they must not be doing it. I haven't observed this particular pencil on the moon, so, hypothetically, if I was standing on the moon and I let go of this pencil, I wouldn't know what would happen to it. We didn't observe the formation of our solar system, therefore we shouldn't be able to deduce how it formed. We don't observe intelligent radio transmissions, so we must be the only advanced civilization in our galaxy. We don't observe methane-based (instead of water-based) life forms, so they must not exist. We don't observe extraterrestrial life, so Earth must be the only planet in the whole universe that supports life. We can't directly observe black holes and dark matter, so they must not be able to exist. We can't observe anything past around 13 billion light years, so nothing must exist past that distance.

Straw man argument. I’m talking about characters in fiction, not a philosophical viewpoint. If you like Tsundere’s does that mean you’re okay with girls hitting guys for no reason? We don’t observe characters urinating or changing clothes but we often see things that can only be explained by such explanations. If there is anything to actually suggest that Hinata and Yuri have that relationship then it’s probably what we’re already arguing about. But my point still stands. If there’s nothing to suggest it then you can’t just assume it as a given.

Believe what you want then. But let me just tell you that you're wrong. There is no evolution needed. It's right there in that short excerpt from chapter 3. Stop ignoring evidence. And it's not even an argument, just a definition of terms: X is his true self. He acted like Y, which is not the same as and is in direct opposition to X. By definition, Y couldn't be his true self since Y =/= X.

Lovely, but that’s an entirely different point that we’re already discussing
Actually that is an argument..