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Old 2013-01-27, 12:06   Link #5722
Haak
Me, An Intellectual
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
The only one who made an issue out of it was Cagalli. Yes, I'm sure Uzumi and the others in the government were not happy with it, but in the end they all recognized the value they got out of it.
And what value did they get out of it? Stolen Gundams and their only space colony destroyed? From what I remember, Uzumi regretted it and Orb didn't continue producing weapons for the Earth Alliance after that.

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The Alliance was reformed in Destiny because of Junius 7.
But Orb did not choose to join the Alliance on that basis. You're arguing that after the treaty forms, Orb can consider PLANT a threat as well. But that's only after Orb joins the Alliance. I'm saying the whole decision to join the Alliance was BS in the first place.

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Well, there are two ways that I can see for there to be leeway:

1. Exceptions and edge cases are somehow codified.

or

2. The 3 claims are not taken literally.

If you take the second approach, that brings us to: This is where the second approach comes in. If the claim is not taken literally, then it doesn't have to be an actual invasion. It just means that Orb will protect itself from external threats.
I never said there's wasn't any leeway there. But it's still false equivalence and on a hypothetical situation that has no bearing to the discussion. The fact of the matter is that the suffering caused to Orb by the Julius Seven incident was not a factor in the Orb deciding to join the Alliance.

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Maybe not legally (although that's debatable as there's no organization like the UN to enforce international laws), but practically, yes, because Orb was powerless and without some of its leaders (who had conveniently just killed themselves).
So what you're saying is that whilst Orb soldiers did fight in the last battle against their occupiers, they did not do so for their country because they were practically powerless. That makes no sense.

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It may be an ideal, but it can never be an end to itself. The end goal is to protect Orb.
That's the ultimate end goal yes but the end goal of those three ideals is neutrality.

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Oh, him. No, he never resigned.
Yes he did. It says in the Wikia and other places that he resigned as Chief representative and handed that position over to Homura Athha: his younger brother. That seems a little bit too specific to be made up.

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Right, tell that to the people who suddenly saw their country being overtaken by a foreign nation.
And regain their country afterwards, which wouldn't have happened in they joined without a fight. But this is separate point. The point is that regardless of how you might interpret it, what Cagalli's father did does not suggest that he was breaking his ideals. Quite the opposite.

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Why not? Because of a line uttered in defiance? I have no doubt that Uzumi and his colleagues thought they were doing the right thing. But in the end, their actions still reduced Orb's chance of fighting the AF's invasion.
Uzumi believed his actions wasn't handing over Orb to the Earth Alliance. He believed that they were defying the Earth Alliance satisfactory sight until the end. That does not suggest he believed he was breaking his ideals, regardless of what you might think of it's practicality. And in the end what he did allowed Orb to defy the Earth Alliance even further and ultimately allowed them to regain their country which they couldn't have done if they fought to the last man. The fact of the matter is that what Uzumi did was definitely following the ideals at least for his perspective. If you're trying to argue that this is an example which shows they don't consider the ideals to be fundamental then this is not a good example.

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No, the show definitely does not portray it as being out of character. The show portrays it as being a different approach toward the end goal of ensuring Orb's safety given their situation. Hence, why Cagalli had no legitimate means of preventing Orb from joining the Alliance.
That doesn't stop it from being out of character.

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Just to clarify on something:

When I said "at whim" in an earlier post, I don't actually mean there was no thought behind it or that it was carelessly decided upon. I meant that this wasn't something on the level of adding a new Amendment to the US Constitution. It was more like something that Uzumi could discuss with his cabinet members and then make a decision upon.
Believe it or not, the US constitution is infringed upon quite a lot by it's own Government but nobody believe it would completely abandon it. That's the same principle here.
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