[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by cronnoponno

Now, pardon me for not remembering, but when you guys say ''Didn't appear near Battler at the same time'', do you mean that Battler acknowledged them both in a physical manner at the same time?

Well, in all of episodes 1-4 not even once are Battler, Kanon, and Shannon all in the same room at the same time. But, in episode 5 it's suddenly happening all the time.

Although for episode 5 I don't remember who acknowledges who that well. But even so, the sudden shift in the (apparent) rules that dictate where these characters are allowed to appear is quite stark.

Originally Posted by cronnoponno

Because, if he didn't, by that logic, the seven sisters of purgatory appeared before Ange's classmates.

Most scenes I see Kanon in with multiple witnesses, he talks but his voice is usually not heard(well, you have to decide which one is the delusion in the scene), sort of like when Ange was being made to read that bullcrap her classmates made her read, they were yelling at her classmates. I haven't rechecked EVERY scene however.

Is that so? Just off the top of my head I can remember that he is the focus of attention for quite a few people, including Battler, when he is introduced in episode 1.

Originally Posted by haguruma

And it was not written (the story within the story) with the knowledge of Shkannon in mind.
We have to assume that Tôya still had no knowledge of that plot device when he wrote End of the Golden Witch, as in the end of Alliance Battler is still startled by the fact that Kanon vanishes everytime. While the part within him (Beatrice/Battler's loving memory of Yasu) that wanted to conceal this was well aware of that fact, the part of him that wanted to find out the truth (Meta-Battler of EP1-5) was oblivious to this.

So you're saying that Tooya is unconsciously writing Banquet and Alliance to be ShKanon-compatible stories? Until he stops at End for some reason? It seems weird that he would do this.

What I think I have been trying to say all along is that perhaps we can interpret the situation this way: End was written by someone different from the writer of Banquet and Alliance, whose understanding of the game is lacking somehow, or just plain different. I haven't gotten to the end of Twilight yet myself, but could it be a switch in authorship between Tooya and Ikuko? And how well did Twilight confirm that Tooya/Ikuko wrote Banquet and Alliance in the first place?

Originally Posted by haguruma

In EP3 it is written in a way as if the parents found Kanon in the church, which cannot be if Shkannon is also a fictional fact as Shannon would have to run like hell from the parlour to fool them...or it would imply that all of the parents who went to the church were lying and in on the game of the witch. In EP4 all the parents witness both Kanon and Shannon at the same time and even see them comitting actions at the same time.

As for witnesses, especially in Alliance... yeah we all know how reliable that is. They all saw Kinzo too. Heck, most of the Alliance narrative is completely bogus; the entire escape from the Kuwadorian dungeon is fiction, and I don't just mean magically embellished fiction, but factually incorrect fiction; they were never even in the Kuwadorian.

And a side note about Alliance that I have been thinking about:
Since nearly all of Battler's info in Alliance comes over the phone, the episode becomes pretty simple if you just hand wave the flag that Yasu is exceptionally talented at imitating voices. Evidence: Yasu already has a Kanon voice, a Shannon voice, probably a Beatrice voice, and maybe a "man from 19 years ago" voice. The only new voices she'd have to imitate are Kyrie's (for sure), Krauss's (maybe), and Jessica's (maybe).

Originally Posted by haguruma

While all of them leave room to assume the Shkannon theory there is a small difference between how Legend and Turn handle Shkannon and how it is done in Banquet and Alliance. I think the differences are held small because the reader is still in the clue-searching phase...and Ryûkishi admitted that he made his riddles easier after he thought that many people weren't getting there after Turn.

Legend has no hints about ShKanon (whatsoever as far as I can remember). Shannon and Kanon never appear together in front of Battler, true, but since Shannon "dies" so early I would call it such a reasonable coincidence that it doesn't qualify as a hint. Actually, I would even say that ShKanon makes Legend more complicated. It's easier if it's just Kanon as the culprit, and requires far fewer people being accomplices. ShKanon is hinted in the other episodes, though; especially in Turn.

Actually, the way I would categorically separate the first four episodes is Legend on the one side and Turn, Banquet, and Alliance on the other. Here's my reasons:

Legend has practically no magic and what little it does is vague and abstract. Turn, Banquet, and Alliance have lots of magic.

Legend pays nearly no attention to KanonxJessica (there's just one vague line at Kanon's death scene). Turn, Banquet, and Alliance have lots of KanonxJessica themes.

Legend has no red text or meta-world discussions until the tea party.

Legend has no hints about ShKanon (see above).

If it wasn't outright told to me otherwise (which it was), I would think all four episodes were written by the same person, or maybe even all different people. Or something. I just don't see enough reason to think that they were split as Legend/Turn and Banquet/Alliance.

I think part of the problem is that RK07 abandoned Land, which was supposed to have been written by Yasu; it disrupted Umineko's originally intended rhythm.

Originally Posted by haguruma

He definitely upped that scale with End (which was justified in the narrative by Lambda taking over the game) but I would say it was a very abrupt jump. Maybe he wanted to test us and see if we would switch positions midway just because he made the riddle a little less obvious.

Yeah. RK07 loves to throw you lots of gigantic red herrings. Not a fan of that.