[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Falkor

I’m certainly not getting a good grasp of the argument here.

If this is sort of a continuation of the “dere should offset tsun” argument of your last post, there’s nothing I can do…

I have no doubts about your dislike for Taiga’s tsun side, though I want to point out something you probably missed. She does correct herself to some extent, but it’s very subtle and I’m not sure whether the manga has already explained the details, because it’s part of Ryuji’s realization.

The actual point is, as "last resort", if we have to see a balance in the "sweet-sour" side, it is completely off, but as mentioned, it wouldn't be exactly a good point. That said, the main issue was the tsun alone which was actually difficult to swallow. As far as I could see, yes, she actually had development (unlike louise who realize things but never does on the same way), but she is going backwards in many instances (hence the mention of chap11, page 24).

As I explained yesterday, Ryuji understands Taiga’s behavior and somewhat puts up with her because one, his character/personality allows him to do so; and two, because they are withstanding each other on equal grounds—even though she might say a different thing. And this is shown when he replies back on chapter 12 at that restaurant for example, or with the very fact that Taiga can only depend on Ryuji.

I will give you a point about this. However, the problem wasn't exactly that "he understands her", the problem is how he can withstand. This is where I actually mentioned the "patience of saint". If he didn't understand her, it wouldn't be patience, it would be absolute masochism or foolishness. That's why I gived credits for him, but not the author.
and no, they are NOT in equal grounds. Ryuji is quite honest and always tell things that might go against him. OTOH, Taiga does NOT returning the favors at all. Her "understanding" and "weak" phases are absolutely not representative of equal grounds considering how she is in tsun 90% of the time, which means: abuse.

If that was not clear enough, let’s see how Ryuji’s and Taiga’s relationship stands. They are truly friends in the complete sense of the word. Taiga, as Kitamura pointed out, has been showing more expressions ever since she has been hanging out with Ryuji—in other words, only showing her tsun side around him. A way to express herself with somebody she knows wouldn’t mind, whereas the rest basically receives the cold shoulder. He is very special to her, but that does not necessarily mean that she would go as far as being nice—it’s not part of her character. Ryuji sees her as a friend as well, though not in the same way as Taiga. If there was no friendship in-between, he wouldn’t go as far as trying to help her in her romantic interests—she is helpless after all.

You are discarding what Taiga is so flustered about with her confession to kitamura. She was able to define clearly her feelings for Kitamura, yet, she is unable to pin point Ryuji's in her "ranking". Honestly, while it isn't clear, I certainly doubt their relationship will remain platonic at this rate.
Considering Taiga rough and strong demeanor against Ryuji despite she barely meet him at the start, it pretty much proves that she would go panzer with any stranger breaching a certain point of her intimate self. However, she "manages" to be completely dazed at her curcial part of her confession despite she could obviously ignore completely Ryuji's topic during that. Worse, she is even sidetracking her love demonstration with her relationship/feelings for Ryuji. I would not call that "normal friendship".

Well, I don’t really see him suffering from fatal wounds, nor is he screaming in desperation, nor is he begging for his life. He even seems somewhat glad to help her… and though not truly annoyed when she belittles him. A good example of this is would be the time he took Taiga to the infirmary out of his own volition.

You are taking my words way too much on the first degree. You don't need to beg for mercy or such to prove there is a problem. Ryuji got his life literally invaded by taiga, and he has no means nor the character to repell her. Of course, considering his character background, it would be clearly out of character if he kicks her out. However, I hardly believe Ryuji is liking the rough treatment.
And honestly, I absolutely have hard time to swallow that he would be okay to be forced to postpone his attempts with Minori, just because Miss tiger WANTS her happiness before her servant.

Well, I think the fact Ryuji befriended Taiga has given Minorin a new impression on him, which would have not otherwise happened. A hindrance, probably; but that doesn’t mean that chances for Minorin and Ryuji to move along cannot occur.

I never said it would be never happen. However, he has nothing to gain here. of course, like I said before, he is the type of character that doesn't need reason to help someone. That said, the problem here is that he would have much less trouble without Taiga.
At the very least, taiga force situations that give some possibility for Ryuji. However, these are circumstances, absolutely not Taiga's own will.

Do you really think she means what she says? She is a “tsundere” after all. Her tokens of appreciation were very subtle in the novel, and they are even more subtle in the manga. For example, why did she mention Ryuji at the confession? There is more than one way to interpret this situation, but it comes to mind that she wanted to recognize the support of the person who had always stood next to her—the same one who brought her words out.

On the other hand, I think Ryuji has already received a “thank you” from her, even if he himself did not quite realize it. By dismissing him and/or trying to fix the misunderstandings on her own.

The problem isn't the fact she isn't thankful. The problem is that she isn't able to do that despite how grand Ryuji's efforts are. I can accept tsundere have difficult time to play the honesty card here and there. But for crying out lourd: he basically pull her out of her "misery" routine life, helping her and withstanding her erratic moodswing.
Obviously, Ryuji KNOWS she is most likely thankful, but there is a huge and great difference in "knowing someone is thankful to you" and "hearing thanks from the said person".

That would have been a serious step forward, and I have yet realize any action from her that would be in such category of "thanks".

There’s little doubt that Taiga “playfully” sees Ryuji as her “slave,” but have you considered why is he “putting up” with it or why he decides to stay by her side? I think Ryuji knows Taiga more than you believe he does, especially the fact that she is no tough girl. If somebody of such “true nature” like Taiga decides to belittle him, is that patience of his the object shaking here? He probably doesn’t really care of said belittlement because it’s not ill intended in the first place—or it hasn’t gone to the point of affecting him in the bare minimum. And Ryuji happens to be very understanding due to his own upbringing, and especially when it comes to Taiga—who is basically hopeless trying to take care of herself.

I cannot exactly imagine how it would be "playful". And if you ask my opinion, if she does that because it is playful, that is even more disgusting. That is plain sadism.

I never said Ryuji didn't know much about her. But like I said, the situations are the problems which go on contrast with Ryuji's ability to bear things. The problem isn't the character Ryuji, but how the author force things on Ryuji, through Taiga's abuse.

Oh geez, I was making one of those random comments…

But before reading you post, I used to believe that Taiga was a lighter, yet more likeable version of Louise, but I guess you are finding Taiga even more detestable than Louise—for which, I cannot convince you otherwise.

Actually, I cannot see any of them better than the other.
Louise is basically the very jealous and uncomfortable tsundere that have the horrible habit to be very dishonest and "deviant" in her treatments.
Taiga is "more honest", but she is worse in some way as she doesn't have a real justification in her abuses. Why does she need to act though for her supporter instead of anyone around her? Why does she have to act like that despite the person obviously doesn't have ill motives about her weak side etc?

While Taiga wins some points in contrast of louise, being less of a statu quo, Taiga displays a very obnoxious tsun that doesn't have any real meaning in her situation. In a way, louise's insane behaviour can "be understood" as she is really in love with Saito and would be crushed if he ever abandons her. That of course has the side effect of irrational and stupid jealousy and dubious "enjoyement" in punishing Saito.

In the end, I certainly didn't want to see Taiga as silly as Louise, but I can't help but feel this way because of the whole "servant" thing.
They are on equal level of "bad tsundere" in my books.

I was somewhat aware of that setup, but the conditions for that to happen were not met, not quite as yet—that was the point of my post. From this perspective, I was questioning whether the premise did circle around Taiga’s and Ryuji’s supposedly romantic aspects—for which I believe it did not, even at that confession scene. Given all the events that happened in the manga so far, it was obvious that Toradora was a romantic comedy, but it had nothing to do (for now) with a romance between Taiga and Ryuji. However, the thing that really irked me was your assumption that the readers should be rooting for them, when that should not be the case as Ryuji and Taiga have no romantic interest for the other. Should the spark develop between the two, things might change in Toradora.

That would be a blunt "agree to disagree". I certainly cannot see their relationship as absolutely platonic without any hint of possible romance. The premises of the story show 2 complete strangers "helping" each other in their love conquest but they actually learn a huge chunk more about their "supporter" instead of their love interest. This is where the manga is leading for the moment: it doesn't give a sharp and clear love for any of the protagonist. For the moment, I can't even see Ryuji's "love" for Minori as serious as he might think because he basically doesn't seem to be able to "learn" about her.
And honestly, instead of trying to get Minori's heart, he swore to stay at Taiga's side, despite she ordered him not to, and despite it would mean more abuse or whatnot. You can say some friendship can be "as strong as love", but the manga is so roundabout of their feelings that it leave too much room for romance between then.

This is where my assumption stands: the manga "failed" to show me a true attempt of each other helping for their love conquest. I basically expect it to be a four sided romance. Whether I'm wrong or right about it due of the light novels spoilers or not, It is completely irrelevant. I only gave my opinion so far from the manga, and honestly, this is how it was possible to assuming "until now".

Well, Taiga’s behavior does not go beyond the “playful belittlement” compared to say Louise sadomasochist’s tendencies. And yes, a person does not have the right to treat others like rag, but I think a relationship where one engages in “playful belittlements” with a friend is unique and especial in itself. (I selfdom do this with my closest friends)

Again, I'm astonished with "playful". Does she look like enjoying or going malicious and "jokingly" go panzer against Ryuji?
I honestly can imagine that people can be a bit bossy or "nasty" in their jokes, but I would certainly not consider "playful" in a "non human treatment". That is basically impossible. Sure both are laughing about these... not.

I'm sorry, but I totally disagree with you here: I honestly cannot see how the belittlement is playful. it might be "funny" for the readers for the slapstick, but I really have issue of how it can be considered as laughing matter for actual characters.

Well, I certainly got the selfish part of Taiga’s character. Why she doesn’t want others to be happy is probably because she herself is not entirely happy—living alone, being such a klutz, having his very life depend on a guy (I might elaborate on this later on). And within the parameters of Taiga’s behavior, it’s not strange that she wants to be happy before Ryuji.

That is actually the reason why I pointed her inability to consider her surrounding. "Me, me, ME FIRST!". Okay, most people are obviously selfish (absolute selflessness is extremely difficult to imagine with human), but when you hereby focus in detriment of others, to the point of imposing yourself, this is not acceptable.
Everyone has their granted right to be happy, but if it requiring the opposite for others or stalling others' happiness, that is certainly a big problem here.

Again, the background does NOT justify that to me.

Actually, Toradora has some layers of depth that can make for an interesting analysis if somebody is up to the task (there was a small hint of this in chapters 7-11).

At least she is not writing names on a death note. Wait, wrong series/genre.

There’s nothing really wrong with Taiga’s character as far as my experience with the manga goes and regardless of your posts claiming otherwise. She might do things wrong, but it’s an intrinsic part of her character. Would Toradora be the same if we replace Taiga for a much perfect character that can suit everybody’s preferences? Such character does not exist, but within a certain criteria, I believe Taiga is good enough with her flaws and her selfish behavior.

Personally, I already exposed my opinion bluntly enough, so I don't think repeating such lines would be necessary. Yet again, it is a mere sense of perspective.

Actually, I'm not keen for perfect characters either, and people have their own tastes (even if I can't understand some people love/hate, they are obviously rightfully until it is mere fanboyism/bashing). I would certainly see a tsundere in Toradora, that's a fact. But I would largely prefer one in the "extent" of Shana for instance: unexperimented, a bit rash, but absolutely not bossy or whatnot.
Sure, TD can get its share of unstoppable slapstick "thanks" to Taiga's fiery character, but I must say that I'm atrociously jaded by "random" or overboard bossy/violent side without much "break".

The point I was trying to make, if I was not clear enough, is that it’s not possible to compare two series’ qualities/strengths/weaknesses based on the similarities hold by the main characters—in this case, Taiga and Louise—and still believe that one of them was judged in the right terms. And to spice things more, I’m not even sure if such comparison is suitable when one is anime (assuming again, that this was your first encounter with the Zero no Tsukaima franchise) and the other is in its manga form (Toradora).

I think there was a big misunderstanding here.
First, I compared ZNT and TD only because of sake of reference or "image". I used Louise in order to show how I looked Taiga, except it was only a exaggerated view (which was further explained above).
I did NOT use ZNT as part of my reasoning for "enjoying" TD.

Strictly speaking, only Taiga is giving me a lot of troubles to "look forwards" to the anime version of it. And my reasoning for this is: in anime adaptation, it "should" have a range of faithfulness (until you are going nutso like in Negima).

Anyway, I want to ask you something concerning this ordeal, why would Taiga need to act nice? Why would people need to act nice when it’s not part of their character? As far as your argument goes, I only saw an opinion on why you are not coming to believe either Taiga’s or Ryuji’s character/personality, for which I’m trying to respond with an opinion as well.

I would see her behaviour as OOC as well if she starts to go fluffy lovey out of nowhere. As far as I used as argument:
1) I have hard time to stand Taiga's behaviour because of the tsun
2) Ryuji's situation is hardly as "possible" due of the circumstances that "look forced to me".

Now, for my "enjoyement" part, I would say that I would rather expect further development for Taiga, toning down her wild behaviour for quite a while, and "subtly" helping Ryuji times to times. I don't expect love or direct helping action. In a certain way, her "rash reaction" in classroom in order to make the misunderstanding vanish was nice. That part + the confession were actually the good parts I saw in Taiga, but the almighty page 24 of chapter 11 just gave me a very very sour aftertaste.


At any rate, it will go in circle over and over, so there isn't much possibility to see a "compromise" in our discussion. I certainly don't feel it is a matter of facts or whatnot, but perspective and opinions, so there is no need to "persuade" any side anyway. of course, it was pretty much "entertaining" and interesting to see how a story can stirr drastic different views
That said, I will obviously try to "continue" the manga and perhaps trying the anime with a blank slate in mind, though I cannot expect much "patience" if there is such statu quo going on for dozens of chapters...