[Haak]

Spoiler for @ Znozzy:

Originally Posted by Znozzy

What? He had Kira at Orb in Seed, he knew Orb was neutral, He knew Cagalli was there too, he didn't want to bring a war to a neutral nation, not to mention attacking Orb with one submarine and four mobile suits is retarded, he knew they made Mobile Suits, but he didn't know Orb's full fighting power at that time. Being smart doesnt mean you fear a country, attacking an entire country with 4 mobile suits would be retarded

Oh I see, you're talking about Kira. Whilst I do agree with that interpretation the point still remains that the way Athrun shot down Yzak's idea of escalation clearly suggested he also think it would be a bad idea if the rest of ZAFT would've been involved. And I'm not saying the Athrun had to attack with only his ship...

in Destiny he had the entire orphanage led by Marco(if that's the priests name), Kira's family, and not to mention the AA's crew and his friends, including Lacus

Yeah but that was in Destiny. I'm talking about the incident in SEED.

Of course they did, why wouldnt they? the battle was heading towards their waters. It was one submarine and the four GAT-X's, the Arch Angel and the Strike/Graspers against Orb's Naval fleet, not the entire collective Zaft Earth force.

It doesn't have to be the entire collect ZAFT force. Going against one could have very easily led to them fighting all them later on. Orb is going to have to take that into account as well.

But it's not out of character, in Destiny, clearly, Orb is following the Seirans ideals, since they somehow managed to seize power behind Cagalli's back, with Cagalli being kidnapped by Kira, noone is there to carry on Uzumi's ideals either.

You seem to be mistaking Orb's ideals with Uzumi's ideals

Uzumi in power = The Orb we saw in Seed
Seiran in power = The Orb we saw in Destiny

The family in power seems to call the shots, in Seed it was the Attha's, in Destiny it's the Seirans.

the Seiran's choose to ally with the EA. that's it. Of course it's a 180 from Seed when the Attha's had the power.

I know how stupid it is, but that's what the show told us, and that's all we have to go on, trying to argue if it is out of character or not is irrelevant, since the Orb we saw in Seed isnt following the same ideals as the Orb we saw in Destiny.

I honestly don't think the ideals are interchangeable depending on who's in power. The way it was presented in SEED, it clearly seemed to me like Uzumi's ideals, was Orb's Ideals.

Also bear in mind that Cagalli was still the Chief Representative in Destiny. The Seirans weren't in power.

Spoiler for @ monster:

Originally Posted by monster

The original basis is that NJC allows nuclear weapons. That is always there.

The fact of the matter is, we still never saw Orb using nuclear weapons. Even Akatsuki is not nuclear powered.

So, no, you have no basis at all to say that Kira/Lacus would share the NJC technology.

The fact that Orb not having nuclear weapons is exactly what I'm calling BS on...

I hope you're not making another argument based on Question Begging because I really thought you were past that...

The EA attacked ZAFT after each of the 2 GENESIS shots in SEED.

Yeah, after Genesis had been fired. At that point it's a little too late and the threat of MAD no longer applies.

Well, regardless of what you may think of their intelligence, these are the kind of people who are in charge of the EA.

And the point still stands that MAD is still a threat to them.

SEED phases 48-49 (using the original episode numbers).

I'm talking about SEED Destiny. After the failed attack, the battle in space was completely stalled.

When you don't think something is worth it, you cut your losses, you don't spend more effort on something that's not worth it, especially when you're still in the middle of fighting a war.

And occupying Orb means additional cost of troops stationed there.

But there's not going to be more losses. Like I said, there was no resistance in Orb left after the Mass Driver was destroyed and Kusanagi escaped. They didn't spend any more effort except in maintaining occupied territory which they had to do to prevent resistance from forming. That doesn't mean they think the entire invasion is worth it if they now have to spend additional resources dealing with a problem caused by the invasion itself.

Because it tells you what kind of people Orb is dealing with and why joining the Alliance is not some unreasonable decision that Orb made.

And how is this relevant to whether or not Orb thinks they can deter EA before the treaty? Especially if the evidence given happens after the treaty?

Of course it is, because while they may have known that they are weaker, after their defeat, they definitely know for sure.

And without leaders like Uzumi, it's no wonder why they would try a different solution.

The point we're discussing is whether the EA invasion proves Orb can't deter EA later on. Just because EA is willing to attack a neutral nation does not mean that a neutral nation can't deter EA.

Yes, Athrun, but Athrun doesn't speak for all of ZAFT.

Athrun was high in the command chain so please don't treat his views as if it's just another opinion. It's obviously going to be a lot more credible than just an average view on the situation. Athrun specifically said he didn't want it to escalate and involve the entire ZAFT in this. If ZAFT could crush Orb easily then this wouldn't be an issue, but the fact that Athrun didn't want it to happen just that it simply wouldn't be worth it for ZAFT. And the way the story placed Athrun as the level headed one clearly suggests this was storyline exposition.

Again, it's only 1 ship.

It was one ship. After the incident, Orb was clearly risking an entire fleet descending upon them.

Exactly. They used a lie both times because they couldn't stand on their own power. Orb has no actual means to deter an enemy if that enemy wants to attack.

Eaxctly what? I just said it was a PR stunt and that the response Yuna gave very clearly indicates it was just a PR stunt and he knew ZAFT wouldn't believe them just like Orb knew ZAFT wouldn't believe them when they lied about Archangel in SEED. How did you figure that proves your point?

Except there is a difference: ZAFT did attack them in Destiny.And you know why? Because this time ZAFT had proof of Orb's lie and Orb is no longer facing just 1 ship. When all is said and done, Orb once again found out that they had nothing substantial to deter an attack.

Although they did clearly believe ZAFT could be deterred.