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Old 2012-12-01, 15:20   Link #65
Forsaken_Infinity
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: United States of America
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I strongly disagree with this "Saki was only in love with an "idealized" Shun. So her feelings for the real Shun was just a crush" argument.
To each his own. Saki's love for Shun was more of a crush than "love" as I see from my vantage point. I never said it was "just a crush" but I do say that she didn't understand him well enough and that what she was in love with was an idealized version of Shun. That doesn't change the fact that she was in love with Shun, but it does mean that the question of just how close to her idealized version the real Shun was is up for discussion. Apparently, if the following is any indication, for you, it was very close.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
You know, for the longest time, people were suspecting Shun of having some great inner evil in him. Of being untrustworthy. Of manipulating his friends rather than being honest and sincere with them.
I did find him untrustworthy. I don't think I found him evil per se but he was hiding information from his friends. It is irrelevant whether he was doing it for their own good or not because the reason the adults in that society hide information from their kids is also for "their good".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
In my view, this episode completely and utterly blows those ideas out of the water. The poor guy calmly went to his death because he didn't want to hurt his loved ones anymore. Some great inner evil...
Here you completely ignore his own words. He says himself that his subconscious is responsible for all the "horrible" things that he didn't ever consciously wish for. And his death was anything but calm. His "great inner evil" destroyed his entire village before he could bring himself to end his life. I don't think Shun was an "evil" character but he himself held the view that his subconscious was troubled and that the acts that resulted were horrific to say the least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
So on what basis do people say that Saki only loved an idealized Shun? Because she didn't know all his inner turmoil?

But that inner turmoil doesn't change the sincerity of his love for Saki. It doesn't change his core personality. It just makes him a much sadder and more tragic figure. If anything, Saki learning more about the extent of Shun's inner turmoil in this episode merely made her love him even more.
You see, I can't speak for others but when I say Saki was in love with an idealized Shun, I didn't say she didn't love the real him at all. Ideals can't exist without a real basis. Shun was a smart, mystifying character. It's very understandable why an young girl would have a crush on him and it's also undeniable that over the course of the show, Saki fell in love with him further and further. However, that doesn't change the fact that she didn't know him all that well and that her "love" stayed a crush because she never acted upon it until it was too late. What you had this episode was a tragic story of two people who had a long-standing mutual crush but were unable to bring anything out of it because of hesitation or what have you until it was too late. I don't blame them, mind you, their society is built that way and even in our society, this situation is all too common anyway.

As for the sincerity of Shun's love for Saki, I don't think I ever questioned that. I would even give him the benefit of the doubt and say that his love for Saki was closer to actual love than Saki's for him which was more of a crush.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Did Saki turn away when she saw what Shun had turned into? Did her love for him fade upon seeing the depths of his descent into becoming a Karma Demon?

No, not at all. In fact, it made her want even more to not leave his side!


I'm amazed at how many people can miss such strong, powerful, true love here.
I think what's happening here is that your standards for what you consider strong, powerful, true love are lower than what I consider to be as such. I judge a relationship that's claimed to be true love very harshly. I don't dare say that their love was "just a crush" but I dare not claim that it was anything like true love either. True love can't exist until two characters have spent a significant amount of time in a meaningful relationship. Even a couple who are hopelessly enamored with each other find a great many obstacles when time calls for them to bring their love to fruit. Until and unless a relationship has withstood the test of time and until the two in love have become more or less so well acquainted with each other that they truly understand what it's like to be the other person and still find themselves willing to keep them as their significant other, calling that relationship true love is being naive at best and insulting the pristine shrine of true love itself at worst. Saki and Shun were mere children who couldn't even profess their love. That doesn't mean I should belittle their feelings for each other, I do think they were genuine, but to claim that their love was true and powerful is beyond me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Saki had just finished barely surviving an encountering with one of those PK-killing cats when she met up with Shun. You'd think the girl would be in a panic to stay alive! But even after that PK-killing cat encounter, all she can think about is finding Shun, saving Shun, and learning more about Shun.
Have you ever done something crazy like sneaking out to dangerous places without supervision? The blood rush is so strong that you stop caring about consequences. The thought process becomes very linear and you become obsessed with seeing whatever it was that you initially embarked on the dangerous trip for through. Panic has interesting side effects you know. Panic doesn't necessarily freeze people. It can also put them on a frenzy. I don't wish to belittle what Saki went through to reach out to Shun but it was too little too late for one and for another, her sneaking out to find Shun when clearly forbidden from doing so was already enough to display the strength of her feelings for Shun. That encounter with the cat was at best icing on the cake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Some questions to consider:

1) Who did Shun give the necklace charm too? Satoru, or Saki?

2) Who was the first to give up on trying to find Shun? Satoru, or Saki?

3) When Saki and Satoru were going through the Queerat War Adventure together, did Saki ever think of Shun? If so, what was her reaction to thinking about him?

4) In contrast to Question 3, did Satoru come up at all in this episode? Did either Saki or Shun stop for a second to think about their mutual friends?
1) is irrelevant. But its easy to find potential reasons (or "excuses" if you will) if need be. He may have thought that Satoru is strong enough to not need the charm for one. It is implied that Satoru is stronger than Saki and that Shun had a limited number of such charms (perhaps even just that one). Another possible reason could easily be that he made the charm after he was forbidden from attending school and he ran into Saki but not Satoru. Regardless, Satoru is entirely irrelevant to Saki's relationship with Shun anyway.

2) begs the question of whether or not Satoru suggested to take a break thanks to nightfall because he was concerned about Saki. I was under that impression but make of it what you will. It's not as though Saki didn't agree either. I can't say for certain because it didn't happen but I would like to believe that Satoru would sneak out to reach out to Shun as well had he been told what Maria told Saki after they decided to discontinue their search for Shun for the day.

3) was shown in the anime. She thought of him twice. It was evident that she had a crush on Shun, but neither of those scenes present anything to suggest that she truly understood Shun. If anything, her mental image of Shun was clearly an idealized version during that adventure.

4) is grasping for straws. The entirety of interaction between Shun and Saki was 10 minute long. Saki was clearly in a daze. Shun was very stressed and distracted as well. Why on earth would they start talking about Satoru? Shun wouldn't have mentioned Subaru had Subaru not come there himself either. Shun wouldn't have bid Saki farewell had Saki not reached out to him either. I think you are being very critical of their characters if you wish to imply that they don't care for their friends based of a stressful 10 min long conversation. Saki obviously bid Maria and Satoru farewell just prior to coming to Shun and Shun had told Saki to tell the whole group to beware. They both obviously cared for their friends.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
You know, if I was in Shun's position, I'd probably want to send a farewell message to all my closest friends. The fact Shun never bothered to ask Saki to pass such a message on to Satoru, Maria, or Mamoru is telling, in my view. Especially since he went to great lengths to have a "10 minute" conversation with Saki (one that required him to have steely concentration when it comes to those orbs that were flying around).
As I just got done saying, Shun wouldn't have bid Saki farewell either had she not come up to him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I mean, short of becoming a "Romance as Primary Genre" story, what more can this narrative possibly do to show that Shun loves Saki more than he did any of his other peers? What more can this narrative possibly do to show that Saki loves Shun more than she did any of her other peers?

The implications are so breathtakingly clear, in my view.
I don't think I ever questioned that they were more interested in each other than the rest of their peers at least until this point. But that they were romantically interested in each other doesn't mean their love is true. They had a mutual crush but one that met a tragic end and both of them held out too long on acting on their feelings.

Also, I think that the anime glossed over a lot of detail. For instance, their relationships with Satoru was sidelined a tad bit too much. I was even under the impression that Saki found Satoru annoying early on, which was apparently completely wrong because they were apparently very good friends. I don't know if I want to trust the narrative of this anime when it comes to people's relationships, really.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
But, in fairness, I will say this - There's a couple key pieces of information that the anime doesn't state explicitly that leaves things murkier than what they should be. Once you know them, a lot of things become much clearer, imo. If anybody wants to know what I'm talking about here, please PM me.

It doesn't spoil any future event, by the way.
Do pm me but I highly doubt anything at all can convince me to take this mutual crush of Shun and Saki to be true love. What I disagree with you is on that point alone, and that's basically semantics, and not with the rest of the hijinks although it does seem that I hold the opinion that Satoru cared for Shun and vice versa as well while you may or not hold it. Your position there is rather unclear, and in any case irrelevant to this particular discussion.
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