[Haak]

Spoiler for Znozzy:

Originally Posted by Znozzy

Agreed, however, the EA was desperate for a mass driver, obviously the benefit would outweight the cost if Orb didn't blow it up, but it was a chance the EA was willing to take, as i said earlier, the secondary objective (atleast for Azrael) was to test out the druggies.

I'm aware of that. The EA had perfectly fine rational for attacking Orb since it was totally reasonable for them to believe they could get their hands on the Mass Driver. But what I'm saying is that after that experience, they should be under no illusions that they won't get much out of Orb if Orb decided to stand it's ground again in Destiny.

Threw shit at you?

You were pretty adamant that I was drawing "wild conclusions" and "simply overanalyzing the entire situation" for something that was just me expressing my opinion.

Well, seeing how Orb was one of the few nations that accepted Coordinators and Naturals alike, it would be pretty obvious why they wouldn't attack it to begin with, not to mention they had good diplomatic relations with them.

I'm not saying this would be factor between EA and Orb though.

Well...I wasn't but only because i didn't want to bring this up in an already convoluted debate but just so you know, I think the fact that Orb is a nation that has Coordinators and Naturals living side by side makes the treaty between EA and Orb make even less sense. What about all the Coordinators living in Orb? They were completely ignored as a factor but they would clearly be an issue if Orb just decided to join a force that wants to wipe out all Coordinators...

Yeah, Athrun clearly marked his authority as a commander by simply shooting the idea down before it was brought up, but grunts voice their opinions, hell, grunts in the army tells their superior they " should attack the target " when the commander already knows it would be a dumb idea.


" And that's why Athrun is in command "

Well I'm not denying that either. I'm just saying: Athrun was clearly made out to be more reasonable and logical here which means what he said was made out as exposition and that Orb isn't a country that ZAFT can deal lightly with.

Indeed, but as you said it was out of character, one has to assume you meant the development we had from Seed, so we can't disregard that, if we only take Destiny into account then everything Orb did would make sense since we had nothing to compare it to.

But I'm saying Orb acted out of character in Destiny precisely because it's a complete 180 turn from SEED that doesn't make sense. I'm not only taking Destiny into account. I'm saying Orb is only out of character in Destiny.

Spoiler for monster:

Originally Posted by monster

Not without the NJC, they can't. And not if they wish to deploy nuclear weapons under Orb's main military force.

I obviously meant they'd try to get the NJC. And they don't need to deploy anything. Just have them (or at least make other nations think they have them)

They can't even try without the NJC.

Which is what I was talking about.

What we've seen is that the Archangel crew, including Cagalli, are against the use of weapons like the nuclear weapons.

And what we've also seen is that Cagalli isn't idealistic enough to think a mere treaty is enough to keep Orb safe which was your actual point.

From the timeline on GundamOfficial. The last part of SEED had several time skips.

Well I'll just have to take your word for it. But like i said, if the EA could wait for a treaty to form, Orb would've had enough time to prepare.

It's not really a plot hole since the EA has been consistently portrayed as such.

A consistent plot hole is still a plot hole. And it's not consistent since this was the first (and only) time shown of EA launching two consecutive nuclear strikes with the second strike still being a surprise to ZAFT when it shouldn't have been.

What you're saying is not wrong, but the likelihood of it is low when you consider that these are Coordinators building these weapons, who have come up with weapons like mobile suits, NJC, GENESIS.

Just because they're Coordinators doesn't mean the probability is low. I'd say the idea that it's completely foolproof is a much lower probability.

And beside, it's not like nuclear weapons is the only option for the EA.

No they were able to develop a ridiclously expensive and incredibly risky new alternative that they couldn't possibly be sure would work just a mere thirty-odd episodes later...

If MAD isn't a factor, then I see little reason why they wouldn't try again, especially on Earth when there's no reason for them to automatically believe they have a second and there's little drawback to them doing so.

Of course not, the problem is if it will stay that way.
The EA didn't have a reason to attack Orb in SEED ... until it did.
ZAFT didn't have a reason to attack Orb in Destiny ... until it did.

Joining the EA is a preemptive move to ensure the EA will not have a reason to attack Orb.

We were talking about how EA should not have a reason to believe they can get anything out of Orb. That should stay that way regardless of that happens. It would take a pretty stupid move from Orb to blow that.

What are the other factors in your opinion?

The costs vs the benefits to the side that wants to attack is the main one. How perspectives can change from previous wars is another. Nuclear weapons is another but that's not related to this point...

No, because we, the audience, can only see what are shown in the episodes. Orb, and especially the Seirans, have been living in the same world as the EA. While we get to skip 2 years after SEED, they are living through it.

This was not a factor shown in Destiny so that's fanwaking as well.

The reason is irrelevant. The point is, if the EA has an objective, whatever it is, they're not afraid to achieve it by force.

No.

The point is, if the EA has an objective, whatever it is, they're not afraid to achieve it by force so long as the benefits outweigh the costs in their perspective.

1. ZAFT was also at Orb.
2. The Destroy was meant to destroy all resistance.
3. Sure, most would not. Still, the EA didn't bother distinguishing ZAFT forces from the EF civilians living there.
4. Neutral party is only neutral as long as the EA doesn't want anything from it, as Orb found out in SEED.

1. So? Orb hadn't formed an alliance with them and Orb could just tell Miverva to piss off. Berlin couldn't and didn't want to do that.
2. And? I'm not denying it did.
3. Because they weren't EF civilians. They were willingly under ZAFT control.
4. So my point stands then. EA isn't going to attack Orb for no reason. It will only attack if it has reason to. It's not some dumb force that attacks anything that moves and it certainly doesn't prove Orb would be first of EA's agenda. Orb should still be way down below on the list.

It all comes down to Athrun not having evidence. In Destiny, ZAFT had their evidence, so they didn't have to accept Orb's lie again.

And this doesn't mean Orb weren't aware of that. In fact that was precisely their plan. They knew Athrun and thus ZAFT wouldn't take issue with them, not because they thought Athrun would believe the lie, but because they knew Athrun didn't have a good enough reason to attack. Which just goes to show that there are other factors, other than power levels when it comes to deterrence.