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Old 2004-08-26, 12:24   Link #284
Hunter
Bubbly and super fun
 
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Doesn't look like Kansas
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Originally Posted by Macbrother
Uh, hello? Did I start this discussion by saying that Johnny average, Joe median and Billy mean would surpass the 3rd? No. The crux of this discussion is concerning Yondaime, his natural genius and talent for jutsu creation and the question of whether he would or would not surpass Sarutobi, given time to live out his prime and beyond. (at 25 he would be just entering it) Yes, there's been some knick knack side discussion about the shinobi in general, however I imagine you are fairly set that they are only going downwards from 25 onwards, where it's my belief that they are very much a conjunction martial artists / spell-casters / athletes wheras they decline physically they're experience, whatever jutsus they may learn, etc, offset, or even make them stronger than they were in their youth. Since we have zero data on the 'average joe ninja' at the age of 50, and both of us are fairly solid, I'm willing to let that slide.
The 3/4 of our posts were about the shinobi in general for the very reason that we have no info about the past strength of the Sannin, it wasn't knick knack side discussion, it was the backbone of this discussion.

Your argumentation until then was based on the fact that because the regular ninja never stop to grow, so does Yondaime.
Whereas my point was to say maybe The 4th would have continued to grow, but it's not the case for the regular ninja.

If we let slide that then I can only stick on what I said in my first post : Now did Yondaime would have become stronger (and I mean significantly stronger) than the Sannin and possibly than the God of the Shinobi himself at his best?
Maybe, who knows?

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Exactly, however my whole point is that included with the extra physical training is experience + whatever new jutsus they pick up along the way can certainly make them equal if not superior to what they were young, for a time.
And I agreed with that since the beginning, the point where we diverge is the amount of time that it can last.

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I never said it was obligatory that their jutsu knowledge increased. However, being that they are ninja and I imagine they want to serve Konoha to the fullest, they would dedicate themselves to maintaining their strength or increasing it wherever possible. Where does wisdom come in? Hello, with experience? Wisdom = judgment + discernment + ability to apply knowledge, the more you see, the more mistakes you make, the more you see different reactions to different situations, what works, what doesn't, etc, etc, the more your ability to judge correctly how to act in situations, be they battle, or otherwise. Are you seriously new to the concept that wisdom comes with age?
And you can dedicate yourself all you want, in the end time wins.
I'm not new in the concept that widom comes with age : it's just that it's a bullshit.
Neither common sense nor good judgment will come just because you're old, old isn't equal to wise.
Anyway as you reduced knowledge to jutsu knowledge, you reduce wisdom to battle wise or battle experience and I already say that it was one of the element allowing ninja to continue to improve their skills so what's your point?

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I didn't say unimportant, but it seems largely irrelavent at 50.
Six of one and half a dozen of the other.

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I cannot recall an instance where one of the sannin were hindered by age. Hindered by lack of work for the past 25 years, by a drug, by a phobia, by loss of arms, but not age. They still have enormous, incredible, ridiculous chakras, to the point where they can call forth a grand summon and appear to be completely unphased by that. That seems to me age isn't affected them incredibly yet. There's absolutely zero indication that they were that much stronger when they were younger, either. Also, I thought of another interesting thing; the body that Orochimaru picked up. You seem to think that chakra is tied tremendously to the body, wheras Orochimaru has an entirely new body, yet there is no aparent loss of chakra. Do you think maybe spiritual/mental play more of a role, or do you think there's an adequate supply of freaky-looking chicks on the street with enormous sannin-level chakra?
What the hell are you talking about?
Indeed Oro hasn't any apparent loss of chakra, he has a young and strong body and the spiritual energy of his old soul.
More than that given that the strong thoughts of his host remain inside him (as he said), maybe the spiritual energy of his new body increase his own(?).

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So what, if you're really good, age doesn't affect you? Tsunade's strength doesn't seem to have dropped at all since her youth, both Jiraiya and Orochimaru commented on this, so when's this fabled 'real-world' age degeneration thing supposed to begin, anyways?
Tsunade changes the age of her body with a Ninjutsu, she's in her younf self.
Look at her arm when the jutsu stopped and you will see what means degeneration (actually it must be even worse for Tsunade due to the side effect of her Genesis Rebirth).

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Like I said earlier, it's likely that in Naruto the aging process is either extremely slow, or non-existant at 50, since Tsunade hasn't lost an ounce, neither has Jiraiya apparently.
No like you said earlier we have no clue of their past strength, so forget your 'apparently' and 'likely', there is no indication the aging process is extremely slow or worse non-existant.
And for the second time, aging is a continual process, you don't start to age at 50.

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I've never heard him make a comment about age hindering him, either. As you so often like to point out, "grats on seeing shonen manga are exaggerated." Well guess what, you think maybe its' exaggerated in this case too? Likely.
The aging process is exagerated so it's non-existant?
You make no sense.

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Haha, touche, however, there are some definite differences between these jutsus. The main thing shiki fuujin doesn't require corpses, is based upon a contract, and is a one-time only summon. So obviously we don't know the practice, if any, involved in bringing him forth, or how he created/completed the jutsu. I would like to know how you go about getting a contract with the death god, though :P
As for Edo Tensei, that does require corpses, is not a one-time only jutsu, and therefore could be practiced-upon, repeated, etc. I would imagine Orochimaru would test it in some form to make sure the right shit is brought forth, no?
Indeed there are difference between these jutsu, but we simply don't know them, the Shiki Fuujin and the Edo Tensei are both Summon jutsus, there is no reason to think that the Edo Tensei can't be based on some sort of contract as well as we don't know if the Shiki Fuujin is based on a contract before the summon.

You must sign a regular summon contract with your blood, with what do you sign a contract with a Shinigami? You can give your soul only one time.

Anyway yeah I would like to know more about the genesis of this jutsu ^^

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As far as I know, there is only one death god, so I doubt Yondaime had to worry about accidentally summoning baby death gods before fighting Kyuubi. They are very different techniques, so comparing them in this manner isn't really valid. And if he only needed dead corpses, why did he use two of his live, subordinates? It's more likely they need to be sacrificed for that purpose, Edo Tensei than that you can just pick up any two bodies off the street.
Actually no there isn't only one lol, it's a Shinigami, there are plenty of them.

Then why doesn't use the live of these guinea pigs who had survived their utility?
Without saying that it has more strength to show the corpses of people the reader knew.

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As for Nidaime, since he did say the name of the jutsu, I'll concede he may have heard of it before, but his and Shodaime's responses to it, if so, were very odd.
Why?
Btw the Anbu captain explained all he knew about the Edo Tensei after that saying that it's a forbidden Kuchiyose etc.

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Dude, for the last time, it was if Oro were still in his old body but with all the ninjutsu he had learned over the 25 years, versus his younger self.
And again for the last time : I don't know what would be the abilities of Oro in an old body, how his transformed body, the chakra changed joint of his bones, allowing him to be sneak-ish would react to age for example?
And like I said Oro is a Ninjutsu specialist so the least touched by his body capacity.

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Which is my point. All we have to go on are the legendary three, and considering Yondaime was in the same bracket, they make very good points of data to refer to.
And given that we have no clue on their past strength, you simply can't say that the 4th had to become stronger based on them.

In the other hand we do know that the 3rd who was 17 years older than them suffered heavily from his age, even with new jutsu and experience.
You assume that it's not the case at all at 50, I assume that it's less the case at 50 because they're not that old yet.

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Yes, of course, he was only 25-26. He's barely just entered his prime, there's no telling what new ninjutsu he can come with, create, use, etc, etc. There's no question in my mind he would've gotten stronger, the point of 'time' lending to strength is proven in the anime.
The point isn't if he could have become stronger than he was at 25, but if he could have exceed the 3rd, again I don't see anything which makes that more likely than unlikely.

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Tsunade given 'time' is able to make herself almost indestructible. Oro, given 'time' perfects Edo Tensei along with giving himself eternal youth. Does time not seem to imply new ninjutsu and therefore probable 'greater strength' to you? When I argue about 'falling too far behind' that is only concering their physical aspect, of course with newer ninjutsu they are likely going to be even more deadly.
With time Tsunade dropped in a fallen state, with time Kakashi admitted that his current state wasn't enough and that he should re-train etc.

Time isn't a precise data of what will happen, it's not equal to training, it's not equal to more strength.
Especially when you have already the duty of your job to handle, a Hokage can't train all the time like a genin learning the jutsus he will use during his life.

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Unfortunately Michael jackson breaks my point in this case as my, how he has fallen since his prime :P But yeah, you think Sarutobi knew and mastered all of Konoha's jutsu by 25? lol, that'd be quite a feat to be called 'the professor' at age 25, along with the greatest ninja of all time. These titles in the real world are applied well after a ninjas prime, very rarely (if ever) during it. Once again comes down to what you and I think is probable.
These titles don't exist in real word, all the title we know in Naruto were given to living (and young btw) Ninja like the Sannin, Copy Ninja Kakashi, the Seven Sword Mist, The Demon of the Mist, etc.

Besides the professor and the God of the Shinobi are two different titles, I you really want to know I do think it's more likely that the 3rd gain this one when he was older (I have no particular amount of time in mind, just older).
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