[zigantz22]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Let me repeat again the requirements for a 'coherent' explanation of Medaka's feelings for Zenkichi: first, the factor in question needs to be demonstrated in the manga yes, but you must also explain why Medaka's character should care about it (i.e. why it's important to Medaka's character arc). The alleged 'physical attraction' you've mentioned is merely a secondary by-product of the original emotion I explained to you, Medaka's gratitude for Zenkichi's devotion. Unless you can demonstrate that physical attraction to Zenkichi would be significant to Medaka's character for some other reason, it doesn't constitute a contradiction to my claim that Medaka's 'love' for Zenkichi is defined by his devotion to her.

You have been the one going on a diversion. What is the original context of our discussion? Your contention that there was ever some substance to Medaka's romantic attraction to Zenkichi beyond her emotional dependence on him. Now you are saying there is zero substance/depth to their current relationship. Doesn't that simply make my point? If you strip away the sole factor which ever added any remote weight to Medaka's relationship (her appreciation for Zenkichi's devotion to her), then you are left with nothing to justify her continued romantic interest in him. I'll ask again, are you suggesting that the reason Medaka and Zenkichi should be expected to get back together after they complete their maturation away from each other, is because she is physically attracted to him? If no, then you have no in-story justification for your expectation that Nishio will not actually break this relationship, only your preconceived assumptions and prejudices, the very things Nishio has made a habit of destroying.

Do you now not see what an ass you have been making of yourself? "Boohoo, I can't handle the suggestion that Medaka and Zenkichi won't end up together. I'm going to throw up an argument based on my instinctual disagreement with such a theory, despite having zero logical backing for my objection. All I have to offer are subjective 'observations' and a groundless confidence that Nishio won't upset my expectations." What a joke, try actually thinking next time before getting on your self-righteous soapbox.

I’m quite certain I haven’t “made an ass” out of myself to anyone but you. Hell, I only ever initially responded to your points because you consistently dress them up in some absurdly condescending viewpoint of comprehensive objectivity, as though you’re seemingly the only one that’s able to understand the finer nuances within the story, what with all your mentions of what is essentially a “given” to occur for their character development to naturally progress. You naively assume that absolutely nothing can be left open to interpretation, which constantly leads to an effort from you to illustrate and subsequently foreshadow every single significant development that’s going to occur for the main characters. As such, you continuously suggest that for the story or character development to ever go in another direction than what your preconceived notions have previously indicated would be a serious compromise of Nisio’s “literary self-worth” or some such nonsense.

Honestly, I don’t even particularly love their relationship, especially Medaka’s occasionally detached part in it, but I’ve realized the inevitability of their relationship for quite some time. Not to mention, I stated that their relationship lacks depth, not that it’s altogether devoid of it. The dependency, in and of itself, is an element of depth, as well as Zenkichi’s previously held and thankfully dismissed adherence to his blind reliance to live for Medaka alone. Following their maturation, I expect they’ll have partially, if not completely, shed the flawed aspects of their love for one another, whilst realizing the positive aspects of said love. For one, it appears to be increasingly indicated throughout the story that Medaka has legitimately understood Zenkichi’s feelings and has reciprocated them out of a desire to be with him, which doesn’t, in this case, equate to mere dependency, but also to an appreciation of him as an individual.

The only reason I ever mentioned her attraction to Zenkichi is because you desired to see any moment within the entire story that was even minutely disconnected from dependence within the emotions she was feeling at the time, and I offered you a clear example, and, predictably, you dismissed and nearly overlooked it altogether and told me to try again, despite it’s legitimacy. I don’t see how you can claim that physical attraction is bred from dependency, when thirteen or so years of considerable dependency had passed prior to that confession, and I hardly saw a glimpse of attraction on her part. Of course, that alone wouldn’t necessarily be able to sustain a relationship long-term, but, as long as she’s capable of that separate emotion, it seems pretty evident that she’s capable of others as well. Ones that are removed from the childish dependency that still resided within her. However, you seem dogmatically intent on manipulating every single gesture of affection into an unavoidable display of an emotion that is solely derived from her dependence on Zenkichi‘s presence in her life.

Of course Kumagawa wasn't trolling. Medaka's return represents a genuine victory for him both because it was something he bet on and something he desired. Do you think he's going to be seriously satisfied now however with just that single, insubstantial victory? Is there any interpretation you can apply where this one victory significantly changes Kumagawa's character? Because y'know, that's the actual point of character development, isn't it? Not just to have a 'symbolic' moment of a character changing somehow, but to actually show that change.

Kumagawa's character will not change until he actually achieves his ultimate victory. Until his character finishes changing, Kumagawa will not have finished his story. Your (again) naive and superficial interpretations of what Nishio's supposed intentions are is the only basis you have for calling Kumagawa's story over. When in fact, any cursory analytical overview of Kumagawa's character development would clearly tell you that his story is not finished. This is something even you have already understood instinctively. What I am telling you is that Nishio's adherence to proper literary writing is what is going to win out, not your preconceptions of what Nishio supposedly 'meant' in the story.

How the hell is this point actually up for debate. Of course Kumagawa can and likely will win again, but, according to the developments within the 185th chapter, Nisio’s writing of the development, and Kumagawa’s words, his ultimate victory has already passed and it‘s absurd to blindly state otherwise when the evidence was displayed for all to read. But no, of course, he’ll now need to attain an even more significant “ultimate victory” wherein he magically rescues Medaka’s heart from the pits of isolation, thus producing derisive glee in shipper's hearts everywhere. His ultimate victory has always been known to be the victory that he finally acknowledges with sincerity and he only recently did just that.

I simply don’t understand why, as a supposed Kumagawa fan, you’d be so welcoming to a development that diminishes his character’s worth so dreadfully. I mean, in what way would you actually want Kumagawa‘s character to change, aside from winning more frequently? Would you honestly want that change to be represented by him earning Medaka’s love and softening up into this romantically inclined individual. What a way to ruin his character, since, of course, according to you, his development into a romantic partner for Medaka is the only way to achieve "proper literary writing", and yet you honestly don't see any sort of a biased delusion creeping into that statement? If not, there's truly nothing I can say, since your perception of Kumagawa's growth is so laughably misguided.