[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Languages becoming deceased isn't really something that happens in mystery stories.

...

Yes, I can. That which is dead does not come back to life. Shannon and Kanon can come back to life. Ergo, they are not among the deceased.

Maybe this is a better analogy. My Betsy died on the way back from work. It was truly a horrible experience.

But I called mechanic and he got it working again. (Note it doesn't have to be 'alive' after it died...) 8)

This IS a dirty trick though, if I made you think my wife died or something. 8)

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Shannon and Kanon are not "clearly" un-human. Infact, their nature is a major plot twist, so the fact that Beatrice just dropped these statements with no further context is inherently deceptive. It's a lie of omission since she went out of her way to make him believe something which Is Not True. There's more to lying than just using words wrong.

Well, I know that they kept going over and over how they were furniture and we all seemed to refuse it like we thought they were talking about how they were slaves. But Jessica made that point to Kanon and he kept saying it was something different. So there were these vague hints that they two had some sort of unnatural 'exception' to death and life.

Plus also they had memories of prior games so that was a huge red flag.

But I agree with you here, the lie is definitely a lie. But I'm classifying it as in, a lie by telling you the truth without you really having the proper understanding.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

The red truth is simply the truth. The deaths of Shannon and Kanon do not fit that red, because no only is it not simple, or true, or simply the truth, but it is actively, deliberately designed to make Battler and the reader believe something else besides what is actually true.

By the way, I took a closer look at where we got this idea from:

At the beginning of its first usage it was like this, Beatrice:
When I speak the truth, I will use red.
Everything I speak in red is the truth.

Where we get simply is from Lambda when she was slamming out red truths about the dining hall.
The red truth is simply truth, and there is no need to provide evidence, proof, or room for a counter-argument!!

And also from Cornelia or Guardrail--I mean Gertrude
Know that the red truth is simply truth, and there is no need to provide evidence or proof

So technically idea of red being the 'simple' truth doesn't come from Beatrice herself. She merely says that when it's red, she is 'speaking the truth.'

One set of reds declare that the red is a way of guaranteeing what happened without the need for evidence or proof. Whereas the other one is what Beatrice declares to be true.

I know we've been group all the reds as 100% truthful, no matter whom spoke them. And I don't think at this point we need to disregard reds at all. (Since I believe the red is really an extension of the R-Prime authors.) So, I don't think this proves anything at all, but it is indeed interesting to how Beatrice frames the red compared to LD. I think Beatrice still had a clear intention to deceive, however.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

He undermined the integrity of his novel by making Beatrice a dishonorable cheater who doesn't respect her own rules that she created.

I'm not entirely disliking the idea that Beatrice was a dishonorable cheater in this one instance though. Like, I don't need her to be a totally fair game player for the narrative to be enjoyable. Having a character who plays fair and noble until it hits upon something dear and then changes their style of play can be very enlightening. Basically, I'm more of the opinion that a deception, obvious as it was, tells me more about a person than the simple truth sometimes.


And like I said, she said the truth, but she failed to context it so we ended up being deceived. I remember we got warnings where Ryukishi said "women cannot say what they want sometimes and need to resort to doing things to get you to do it." Rather than 'women,' I get the feeling now he means 'woman' or 'Yasu' specifically.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by J the Drafter

The point "dead languages" is an intriguing argument to me. Kylon99 is right in that "dead" is proven to have multiple meanings in the real world, but AuraTwilight is correct in saying that Ryukishi's usage of the word "dead" is unfair in the novel, if for no other reason that we have no way of reasoning that an alternate interpretation is possible in the case of Kanon and Shannon.

Yeah, I'm thinking that it's unfair like you guys, but now... unfair for a reason. Or purposely unfair, sticking out like a sore thumb because this is what she wanted to bring attention to. What do you guys think? (Seeing as this is only the EP5 thread...)