[Renall]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Not really. As she wasn't there when Lambda said that everyone was in the parlour, she can't know everyone was supposed to be in the parlour in that moment.

Replay. You don't know whether she ever saw it. I would think she would've been present when Lambda and Bern were playing the first time, or else it comes across as vaguely masturbatory for the scene to have ever played in the first place.

Also it doesn't fucking matter. Erika was physically in that room. At any time she can call upon what her piece remembered of that scene if indeed she does have the powers Ryukishi says that she has in ep5. Debating this means debating whether Ryukishi intended us to believe what he told us about her when we had no reason to doubt it. Is he seriously going to go to all the trouble to introduce an extra-textual set of rules governing an aspect of the mystery "game" and then ignore them?

Wait, don't answer that.

Anyway, if she can't remember this scene, her rules don't work the way we were told. If she simply doesn't remember it and never thinks back for any reason, she's even less credible as a villain as she was to begin with. She doesn't even need the red to know this matters. It turns her from a credible threat with an exploitable ego into a complete tool who can't even use the powers she claims she already has.

Ergo even thought it would rewind her memory and go look at that moment she would see it's suspicious for Kanon (or Shannon) not being there only if she were to suspect the characters' count to be smaller than she thought.

What about the Logic Error? It never occurred to her to think back on the last game she played?

"Huh, Kanon just dematerialized from a room that was inescapable, showed up to rescue Battler from his room, then vanished again. Hey, I never did see him back in the last game scene when everybody was supposed to be together..."

Yeah that totally would not have been relevant to her situation in any way nor would Kanon's ability to vanish into thin air cause her to think back on every time she ever was around Kanon. Sure.

Basically in all the scenes she observed Shannon and Kanon were never together but this didn't arise in her any suspicion so why would a scene in which she doesn't know they are supposed to be together be suspicious?

Because it's the scene that should confirm they're separate people to her (as both were in the room), yet if she just conveniently forgets about this scene altogether then the fact that she actually didn't see Kanon in that scene - and thus Shannon and Kanon together at any time - should become relevant when Beatrice uses Kanon as her piece during the Logic Error.

Erika has to be legally brain-dead to not consider all evidence she has about Kanon after Kanon escapes a perfectly sealed room. And Erika is supposedly smart. So basically she either:

• Was legitimately fooled, even though if we buy your line of thinking she shouldn't have been (other explanations still allow her to be tricked); or
• Brainfart. I sure hope that wasn't Beatrice's whole plan.

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

In the end tho, considering Ryuukishi above mistakes might be ridiculous, but consider yourselves (to whoever is like that) above "not understanding something fundamental that Ryuukishi was trying to communicate to us" is even worst. There are definitively things that are both fundamental and either not understood or misunderstood by at least the general fan community (it's possible some people figured them out after all). Even if you think you understand everything that's something you should never be certain of.

So is this thread about trying to understanding things that confuses us about Umineko or about saying Ryuukishi made mistakes whenever there's something that bugs us? Cause the later, even if it's actually right, doesn't really lead anywhere. Especially if it's used as an argument to make the ones who are trying to figure things out to stop doing so.

Oh I agree, I want to believe there's a coherent explanation, but none has been offered and I sure as hell can't think of one beyond what I've already said, most of which is stupid or suggests a mistake.

If we can't find any reason why this scene works, either the reason is so poorly-explained that we're having no luck finding it through simple reasoning (which is a problem) or there isn't a reason, which means it's a mistake. I don't want to call it a mistake, but Occam's Razor and all.