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Originally Posted by relentlessflame
Well, just to be clear from the offset, I don't necessarily agree with the argument that "moe fans don't exist", I just think it's hopelessly nebulous as to what exactly that contains (and what it excludes).
But that aside... if you also have followed my own arguments on this issue over the years, you will also see that my approach has always been to combat judgemental stereotypes with a broader more thought-out perspective. So what you're saying about "broadening the spectrum" and showing that the word has a much broader meaning is exactly what I've always tried to do. Trying to broaden the definition from someone's invalid stereotype is not the problem. If someone says "moe is <x>", it's really easy to say "but it's also <y>, and <z>", where <y> and <z> are less controversial and more acceptable than <x>.
But now, try to turn around and constrain things and to define a single "moe box" that does accurately contain everything it should and exclude everything it shouldn't. I'm a bit partial to the point you said in the other thread about there being a multitude of different genres that all can be grouped on some giant "moe umbrella" (or at least "styles of content that often, but don't necessarily, evoke moe feelings"). That's an interesting way of looking at it, and may be a more fruitful approach. But, in that regard, I still think it's better to come up with other more clear and descriptive terms that accurately describe similar things (and exclude dissimilar ones) outside of the confines of "moe".
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You make some good points, but the practical reality is that it's easier to say Rin is moe with reference to her being a twintailed, thighigh wearing tsundere than with reference to some itself nebulous feeling.
And when someone tells me that moe shows are about "the harem, the weak girls, and the dumb friend" in order to make otaku feel better than themselves citing Clannad as an example, I find pointing out many of these same otaku probably are also Rin fans is a good way to get them to start thinking outside the box.
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But where does it end? I mean, if you group all those shows into a bucket called "moe anime", what does it even tell the uninitiated viewer about the content? Genres are only useful in the sense that they help people identify like things. In the end, your usage is more like an attribute that can be attached to (almost?) any show, regardless of genre or style. When I'm explaining Utawarerumono to someone, it's far more useful to point to its RPG connection (action/fantasy). When I'm explaining Bakemonogatari, I'd probably go more the supernatural/romance descriptor. Haruhi is a bit hard to describe, but I don't think it adds any more clarity if I say "it's a moe anime!". Then there's this ethereal quasi-genre that ostensibly exists at the intersection of K-On!, Kanon, and Chuunibyou... is that really a "thing" and how does it align with all these other shows you "claimed"?
If we're trying to reduce confusion and avoid prejudice/stereotypes, I can definitely see how it's useful to broaden the definition to avoid being "cornered". But you just end up with the large unwieldy catch-all attribute that applies to a tonne of different content without really actually describing the content. So, I ask, why bother? If I look through my anime DVD/BD collection, the vast majority have some sort of connection to the so-called "moe phenomenon". But trying to imply that, because of this, they're all in some sort of "like genre" seems insane to me. The only thing they really have in common is that I like them; "relentlessflame's invokers of moe" is not a genre, I think...  (Though I do thank (and my wallet curses) the anime and bishoujo game industries for continuing to produce content in that "genre". )
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To me, "moe show" merely means it contains non-trivial moe elements. Which actually is useful data to me: Iwai is part of what sets Crime Edge apart from other supernatural action shows for me. It is, of course, not as useful to someone less familiar with the concept.
I seldom actually use the term when pitching a show to someone. Granted, I'd probably describe Utawarerumono as "a fantasy show with a light dusting of moe". But only to someone who was familiar with the term. Otherwise I'd just show them the character designs (incidentally what got me interested in the show), because my Eruruu and Aruruu wallscrolls are not inconspicuous. But Bakemonogatari would be a "harem with supernatural stories and a dry wit". I'd call Kanon a supernatural fairy tale romance and K-On… well, I'd just say it's a cute slice of life about a band of Japanese high school girls.