[Sol Falling]

Interesting that this response here was placed in a thread I've never posted in before...and interesting as well that Kaijo seems to have been banned anyway, so there might be no point to this. I'll assume that the ban wasn't permanent though, in which case Kaijo can feel free to read through and address this if he'd like to once he gets back.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Hindsight is 20/20. At the point in time where Homura was still thinking about this, she was still going off Madoka's plea to stop her from being tricked by Kyube(and the extension that Homura used, preventing Madoka from sacrificing herself). Working with the knowledge of the ending, is truly working on meta-knowledge... an accusation that was tossed around earlier.

Let me ask you a question: How exactly was Homura supposed to prevent Madoka from contracting (and thus sacrificing herself in Homura's eyes)? What do you think the best way to accomplish that would have been? Hang around Madoka forever, when Homura outright stated she would be gone after WN?

That Madoka would not likely just sit by and let Sayaka (or, depending on the strength of their relationship, Homura) become a witch or die is not 'meta-knowledge'. It's an obvious part of her personality. Homura's best bet was and will always have been to keep Madoka as far away from the Puella Magi system in the first place.

If you're asking me how Homura was supposed to prevent Madoka from sacrificing herself, my answer from a long time ago has been that that is obviously impossible. That of course goes against everything Homura was fighting for though, so the answer I've already suggested to you is "Timeline 4 seemed closest to working". Hell, if Homura hadn't looked like she was getting beat up so badly, she'd have succeeded on the 'don't let Madoka contract' front. Going for a repeat performance was more or less the right idea there (if Kyuubey and Homura's statements about 'countless timeloops' can be given any credit, between loops 4 and 5 is where I'd place them, on that note).

What you see there is *one* outcome, and happened because she explained to everyone at once, and was still in her "socially-nervous" stage. The Homura we see now is more controlled, and is more than capable of making heart-felt pleas, as well as thinking calmly enough to find a better way to convince Madoka not to contract.

Homura ain't gonna be around forever, so wouldn't it be a kicker if Homura took off after WN, and Madoka contracted, thus "sacrificing" herself? Brilliant!

I'm not talking about 'one outcome' or shit. I'm talking about character. Mami and Sayaka don't trust Homura. They don't want to hear about MGs turning into witches. That's a given, that's final (or as close at it needs to be from Homura's perspective). Better not to involve them at all. The reasons this is true are all fundamental to their characters--I've already highlighted them in my previous post. Even if they had known, what're Mami and Sayaka gonna do: help Homura convince Madoka not to contract? They obviously had bigger problems than that (self-interest, hello?). Face this fact first: the other MGs are liabilities in Homura convincing Madoka not to contract, truth or no truth (minus, slightly, Kyouko). This much is should be clear.

Half-assing it by tossing a cryptic warning at the window in a creepy manner.

Most successful timeline yet.

We don't know that killing him once was what did it. That whole timeline is vague... and you ignore the very fact that it failed. Another Kyube did show up.

Even if I buy this explanation (which is yet another attempt to fill a plot hole left by the show), Homura didn't really explain the dangers. All they got out of her was that being a magical girl is bad, mmkay? Nothing about soul gems or becoming witches. The major concept that made Madoka speak her plea to Homura, was that MG's become witches.

Madoka pleaded with Homura once, about MGs fighting witches being dangerous. That was for Sayaka. No requests about Soul Gems or witches or anything. Homura clearly told us she botched it in letting Sayaka contract; without that, she'd already have won Timeline 5, since Madoka had been convinced firsthand of mortal danger. The soul gem or witch issues were never shown to be any sort of deterrent to Madoka for contracting. You just have to face it, dude.

At that point, only Mami was involved. And Homura knows that Madoka is a self-sacrificing type, so how logical was it to try and tell Madoka not to be herself? Without any real explanation as to WHY she should?

How is explaining things any more logical a way to stop Madoka from being herself, dude? Doesn't informing Madoka of the situation actually give her more room to respond to it as herself, even? If Homura knows that Madoka's natural inclination will always be to sacrifice herself (she even complains about this, loudly, for your remembrance) then her obvious aim should be to prevent Madoka from knowing she has anything to sacrifice herself for in the first place.

Let me try it here: Accept that I am right and stop posting. Not going to tell you why. Well, did that work to convince you? Or would you say that I need to make a better case in order to convince you?

Sorry, dude, but it's a fallacy to assume that 'making your case better' would help convince me at all. Same thing with Madoka. You don't 'convince' her to stop being self-sacrificing. That's how she is.

You do, if you can show them that sacrificing yourself will do nothing for them. Or that sacrificing ones self will only make it worse. "Hey, Madoka, you know that magical girl thing? I know you wanna get out there and smack witches up, but you should know that when your soul gem goes completely dark, you become a witch. And you have a lot of power, so you'd become an incredibly powerful witch, and thus hurt everyone you know and care about. I've come back in time to because your future self told me to stop you from doing that, because we know you could never stand to hurt other people."

Yes, just came up with it off the top of my head, and may need some refinement, but hey, we got plenty of time-loops to jiggle with the word choices.

Sacrificing yourself doesn't actually do anything for you? Yes, that is basically the definition of sacrifice, guy. "You have a lot of power so you'd cause a witch apocalypse"? That implies inherently that she has enough power to save Sayaka and Homura (oh hey! And maybe even Mami and Kyouko!) though. That's nothing but bait for Madoka to start looking for a self-sacrificial solution, man. You just can't stop Madoka from sacrificing herself without not telling her, dude. It's impossible!

You haven't been paying attention to the questions that have been mentioned over and over, that should have been asked, have you? I'll help by repeating one:

Kyube: "Witches are born from curses, like magical girls are from wishes."
Madoka: "Born from curses? So do you mean witches were once people, too?"

And that's where it would start. Natural, logical questions that should have occurred to normal, reasonable people.

Not natural at all. I'd never ask that sort of question. Comes across as very authorially convenient and unbelievable dialogue to me. Losing me here, dude.

Let me put it forth to you: Are plot holes okay, because the audience can simply make up their own explanations for things? If so, that's great! I'll take it with me into my next fanfic, and not bother explaining anything because the audience can simply work it all out in their heads!

Subtlety is a much more difficult art than blatant exposition, yes. For both the author and some particular readers, it seems .

Remember "Show, don't tell"? That's what Madoka abandoning her MG sketchbook at Mami's place was y'know, as opposed to a direct and blatant line like "I'm too scared to revive you". Great writing where intelligence assumed on both the part of the writer and the audience is displayed.

in the meantime, for your edification, you may wish to consider reading the following:

8 Classic Movies That Got Away with Gaping Plot Holes
6 Movie Plots Made Possible by Bafflingly Bad Decisions

We can talk after, once you realize that, yes, plot holes and bad decisions are legitimate issues in critiquing a particular work.

You've yet to show me any actual plotholes, guy.



Anyway, as for the other discussion going on in this here Homura thread: with regards to WalpurgisNacht's 'gear' motif, I think we should note that Homura's actual 'time mechanism' is actually an hourglass. Gears and clocks have nothing to do with Homura; just another point to say I don't buy the WalpurgisNacht connection here.