[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

I think you might've misunderstood his point.

I don't think that I did. From my understanding of what 4Tran wrote, he's arguing that Madoka Magica is otaku centric. I'm arguing that it's not.

Madoka doesn't have these elements, true, but that's not where the shows' otaku appeal comes from.

I never said it didn't have otaku appeal. I said it wasn't otaku centric.

To me, otaku centric means that its appeals are entirely rooted in what otakus tend to like. That's simply not the case with Madoka Magica, as it holds appeal far beyond that alone.

A good example of a modern otaku centric work is Ore no Imouto. Here's a show that is deeply steeped in the otaku subculture, where the female lead is an otaku, where most of the regular cast members are otakus, and where a viewer entirely unfamiliar with the otaku subculture would likely become completely lost.

A less metacommentary-heavy otaku centric work would probably be something like Idolm@ster, where the character types and comedy are firmly rooted in what otakus tend to like.

Madoka's main selling point to the otaku has been it's ensemble staff.

That has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not Madoka is an otaku centric work.

You don't have to be an otaku to appreciate the talents of this ensemble staff.

Indeed, most (if not all) of that ensemble staff have a distinctive approach or style that differentiates them from more common writing and directorial approaches within the anime industry as a whole. For example, Shinbo and SHAFT's artistic style is pretty darn unique compared to what you see in the vast majority of other anime shows. You don't have to be an otaku to like that artistic style.

The thing is, and I think this point was mentioned already, just because might pander to a certain segment of viewers doesn't make it bad (hence why that Nanoha review is honestly silly in how it criticizes the show for attracting or being targeted to otaku) and certainly, I think that Madoka that is deserving of both the hype and success based on it's own merits, but I do also think that a lot of said success and attention it had gotten was from the list of staff who worked on it.

Perhaps so, but again, that has nothing to do with how otaku centric it is or is not.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Shows sell precisely because they give their customers what they want - that's pretty much the first rule of salesmanship. That doesn't have anything to do with predictable or not taking chances or anything like that, it just means providing the kind of entertainment that caters to their customers.

Generally speaking, though, smart businesses try to expand their customer base. You don't do that by only focusing on the customer base you already have.

The problem here isn't the pandering, it's the bad writing and direction.

Pandering can lead into bad writing and direction, though. Attempts may be made to shoe-horn in a scene designed to pander to a certain group of fans, but by putting that scene in, the flow of the narrative is hindered, or inconsistent characterization is created, or plot holes begin to surface.

This doesn't always happen, of course - sometimes pandering elements are inserted in a way that doesn't cause problems - but it happens often enough that I think people have legitimate reason to sometimes take issue with pandering.

Since when was pandering to otaku restricted to just that?

I never said that it was. But if Madoka was truly otaku centric, it would include more pandering elements than what it has, imo.

Aside from the standard aesthetics of magical girl anime, and some implied yuri, Madoka Magica has no particular otaku focus, and it goes against a more otaku centric approach in many cases.

Simply put, Madoka Madoka is not an otaku centric anime show. It may have otaku appeal, but that's far from its only appeal.

Madoka is predicated on having a preconception of how Mahou Shoujo shows work, and to play on such preconceptions.

A person can enjoy Madoka Magica without ever having watched a magical girl show previous to it. You don't have to be familiar with magical girl anime in order to follow the story of Madoka Magica, or understand its characters, or relate to its narrative.

Sure, people familiar with the magical girl genre will have a deeper, or at least different, appreciation for the show than those that don't, but familiarity with magical girl anime is not a prerequisite to watching/enjoying Madoka Magica.

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

I would give that series a C+,

Wow. That's awfully low. I thought you liked Nanoha?

Anyway, I think I see your broader point.

Originally Posted by Flawnalyst

I didn't say that a show shouldn't give its customers what they want, but for it to truly stand out, it also has to give them what they didn't know they wanted. That means it still has to give them what they want while offering something new. Apologies if I didn't make that clear.

I agree with this. Well put.

As the old saying goes, you can't miss something you've never had. Likewise, you can't want something you've never seen until you've actually seen it.

This is why there's value in trying to make something original. You might create something that people want that they never knew they wanted.

A lot of the major entertainment phenomena of the past hundred or so years were created this way, such as pro wrestling, super hero comics, Star Trek, etc...

Every entertainment form was new at some point in its existence (a recent example being Reality TV), and 'the originals' tend to be held in high esteem.

Originally Posted by Bri

Well said. When the viewing experience is reduced for that part of the audience who lack this specialized knowledge, and these viewers can be still be considered part of the intended audience, only then we can say that pandering is harmful.

What if the viewing experience for some in the audience who has this specialized knowledge is reduced because they dislike the pandering? Is the pandering not then arguably harmful? It certainly is for at least these viewers with different taste.

I daresay that's the case for many of the old-school mecha fans that you mentioned before on this thread.