[monster]

Originally Posted by Haak

There wasn't any hint that the people had turned against the countries ideals.

...

Yes I know. That's what I'm calling BS on.

And that's your problem right there. You're just not accepting what the story is telling you.

Orb officially joined the EA. That's more than just a hint.

But you specifically made an exception that Orb could surrender if they recognised there was no hope of victory just like how Japan surrendered, so it stands to reason they should be allowed to retreat to fight another day for that same reason.

Two ships fleeing the country does not count as a retreat for the country when the country itself is taken.

This is besides the point and isn't even what we were talking about. We were talking about whether Uzumi really did break his ideals when he failed to prevent Earth Alliance invading, but we're already talking about this below so we might as well drop this one.

...

That wasn't your point at all because that has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

We were talking about how how the fact that Uzumi failed to prevent an invasion (supposedly breaking an ideal not through intention but through unforeseen consequence) proves that those ideals were not integral to the government after all.

Your original point is that the government frequently broke those ideals at a whim. Moving aside the problem that this was clearly a deontological point and not a consequentialism one (and I've already proven Uzumi was following his ideals from a deontological point), your claim that foreign policy has to change to reflect the times does not, in anyway, show that Uzumi failing to prevent an invasion shows that those ideals were not integral to the country.

Alright, it seems you're confused about where I stand on this matter. So let me try to rephrase it for you:

My original point has been that Orb's known ideals deal with foreign policies. Thus, while these ideals are important and desirable to Orb, they can be changed to suit the needs of Orb as a country living amongst other nations.

Now, as far as the Uzumi part of the discussion, again, my issue has never been that he failed to defeat the AF. It's that he gave up on the fight rather than seeing it through to the end.

And the reason I'm making an issue out of this (even though I actually support it) is to point out that Orb's ideals are not rigidly enforced.

It's the same way with the Heliopolis incident and how it's handled with just a "PR move."

So when it comes to joining the EA in Destiny, even if there are people who may not like it, it ultimately didn't matter to the story once the government has decided on the matter, especially if the alternative is being outright invaded a second time.