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Old 2010-04-24, 12:51   Link #111
Tsuyoshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Actually, Madara has taken off his mask several times to confirm his identity (to other characters). He was going to do it to Sasuke (until Itachi interfered), he did it with Kisame, and obviously Zetsu knows his face. While Zetsu addressing Madara as Tobi is some evidence supporting the claiming that he is someone else, the fact that Kisame directly addressed him as Madara is clear evidence that the person under the mask is Madara (or at least someone that has called himself Madara for quite a long time).
Kisame and Zetsu are pretty easy to trick actually, although maybe, as you say, Zetsu may know Tobi's true identity. But there's no way for Kisame, at least, to see through Henge. For all we know, Tobi could have used a simple Henge technique to make Kisame think he is Madara. There was no one else there to witness him after all. However, he was prepared to show his face to another Sharingan user, but it's quite likely Sasuke doesn't exactly know what Madara looks like. That said, whatever face Tobi was going to show him, Sasuke wouldn't believed it was Madara anyways (even if it's not the same face he would show Kisame). Or he could've used an old-fashioned face mask. Only a Byakugan could see through that.

All in all, there are ways for Tobi to pretend to be Madara even without his mask. The real question is why, when we've already seen Madara's face in flashbacks, did Kishi keep Tobi's face hidden in the panels when we already know what he looks like?

Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Madara explained his aversion based on resources. To defeat Kabuto and his zombies would require too much effort, consequently Madara's war effort would suffer just to defeat a potential, if short term, ally.
I can understand why he doesn't want to fight someone like Kabuto. But what of Naruto, Kakashi and their team when he confronted them? Someone of Madara's power, who could still supposedly control the Kyuubi and nearly annihilate Konoha in the process, would have no trouble against Naruto, who has Kyuubi's chakra and would therefore have been completely susceptible to Madara's influence, Kakashi who is terribly lacking in chakra, and the others who are relatively inexperienced. Surely he could've beaten them right then and there, but instead, he preferred to leave the fight to someone else. Why? His aim is to capture the Kyuubi, but he didn't do anything against Naruto when he was right in front of him. That's what I mean by his aversion from battle. He simply does not fight even when he's placed in such a situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
"What's in the Box?!" obviously surprised and agitated Madara/Tobi, but it needn't be a sinister as you imagine (then again, it could be worse than anyone imagined ).
Believe me when I say this: if I replaced Kishi was the author and he simply took care of the drawings, Naruto would be much darker and more Seinen than Shounen

Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
So what? Zetsu hasn't actually killed (or tried to kill) anyone, but I expect he could kill most of the lower tier fighters with little problem. Technically Kisame hasn't killed anyone, but he can still whop ass. Sasuke, and so many others haven't, technically, killed anyone either.
Not exactly my point though it has a ring of truth to it. Like I said above, though, Tobi simply doesn't fight even when there are people fighting him directly, even the Kyuubi Jinchuuriki himself. And Zetsu isn't a fighter, but a spy. Whatever skills he has aren't exactly oriented toward battle the way Kisame's abilities are. While Kisame hasn't killed anyone yet, he still never backed away from a fight the way Tobi did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
How does Madara controlling the Kyuubi in any way reflect on his times with Naruto? Naruto is not the Kyuubi, so there is no reason to assume that Madara can control Naruto.
He cannot control Naruto, but he can control the Kyuubi's chakra. Remember that Sasuke entered Naruto's consciousness and supressed Kyuubi basically with the flick of a finger. I'm quite certain Madara could do much more than that if he tried. The point is that he didn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
And Zetsu could have taken both Naruto and Sasuke 3 years ago when they were both exhausted after the VotE battle.

Whatever Akatsuki's final plans are, Naruto is not needed yet, so they do not focus on him.
Zetsu did not take Naruto because iirc, it is neccessary that the Akatsuki capture Naruto after they have everyone else, or at least extract the Kyuubi last. They were in no hurry to capture Naruto and Zetsu's role is to function as a spy, as I said above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
That is completely false. We do not know what happened in the battle with Hashirama, for all we know Madara's chakra was sealed; or maybe, for whatever reason, he only has a limited amount left; or because he lost an eye most of his powers vanished; or any number of other explanations. Simply because Madara isn't a God anymore, doesn't automatically mean he isn't still Madara, nor does it necessitate that Tobi be anyone else.
You're right in saying we don't know what could have happened back then, nor am I actually denying Tobi is Madara. But if Hashirama had been capable of sealing Sharingan powers and chakra, why did he not do so before? Considering the number of times they fought, Hashirama had plenty of opportunities and all the motivation to find a way to fight against Sharingan users specifically. Also, if his chakra had been sealed, I find it hard that Madara could have lived for so long. After all, Madara said that it was partly thanks to his exceptional chakra that he had lived for so long. If he sustained so many injuries during that battle that Madara could not use as much chakra anymore, it's difficult that he could have lived for so long. For that reason, I'm more inclined to believe Tobi is Mr. X and not Madara and that if he is Madara, he shouldn't be incapable of using his powers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Unless there is a reason.

Anecdote: Just last chapter (491), I called the autograph scene between Naruto and some shinobi pointless, because it potentially added nothing to the plot and it served as filler. But, once 492 rolled around, all of a sudden what I once thought to be pointless immediately became central to the story.

Kishimoto need supply only an explanation to explain why Madara is not a God anymore, then everything would be cleared up.
Possibly. Like I said, I'm not denying anything, I'm just putting forward a possibility.
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