[Mentar]

Originally Posted by bayoab

You are talking about an industry which refuses to disclose its sales figures.

And you never wondered why?

The same evidence that fansubs helps sales is equally circumstantial. (Infact, I have never heard a company say "fansubs have increased the number of sales" beside Geneon's line.) So if they don't say it, they must be hiding it right? Also, read my post above for the definition of bad series.

My point is that most of the R1 labels are ridiculously dishonest indeed, Geneon being one of the few exceptions from the rule (which is one of the reasons why most of my R1 sales go to Geneon).

And my main point is that publicity of a show is the key to DVD sales. Contrary to what ADV tries to make people believe with their propaganda I think it's evident that DVDs sell well when the show is KNOWN to people. Anime fans usually don't buy DVDs blindly anymore. R1 releases aren't "enablers" anymore which people use to watch an anime for the first time. No, in general, people buy R1 DVDs of shows they've seen before, and which they like so much that they want to own them. Preferably in a quality which is superior to the fansubs (or DVDrips) they've seen them before in. R1 DVDs are primarily _archive_ material nowadays. Of the last 10 R1 purchases I made, 6 are still shrinkwrapped. Only one of the "opened" ones was to really watch it. And I know that most of my anime friends do the very same things for the very same reasons.

This is why I consider the ADV crocodile tears so hypocritical (or, if they're indeed genuine, a sign of their horrible lack of understanding of the anime scene - which I don't believe). Pointing to bittorrent download numbers and then saying "hey, so much more people downloaded it without buying it, and that's the evil fansubbers' fault" is idiotic. Out of 10 shows I watch on fansubs, I tend to buy 1-2 maximum, and I'm fulltime employed (and so, financially potent). I'd never dream of purchasing several shows - fansubs only help me select what I like. Now think of some schoolkids who wouldn't have the funds in the first place. Are all those "sales lost to fansubs"? Gimme a break.

As I said long ago, finding a series which had no fansubs is VERY hard. Because at some point in time, someone has fansubbed at least an episode of everything. I actually believe Tactics which Manga just picked up had almost no fansubs and will therefore be interesting.

Okay. Go to your local anime shopowner and ask him if a run is setting in on Tactics (which was a mediocre show at best with a few fansubs). By ADV's logic, it should be a hit. I predict a dud.

Actually, I have given an example where the fansubs only got a handful of downloads and the series is now the #2 show on Toonami: Gash Bell. There is more than one way to create a fanbase you know.

Here you're undermining your own logic perfectly: I'm no American, but isn't Gash Bell running on CN? Just like Inuyasha (see below). Of course TV airings have tremendous media reach and create publicity like nuts. They're like fansubs on steroids. If "free" exposure through fansubs would be harmful for sales, then all shows which air on American TV should be the complete death of the DVD sales.

And guess what? It's the OPPOSITE! The DVD sales of shows on TV are among the BEST and HIGHEST. Which is one of the strongest bits of evidence in _my_ favor. These shows sell well BECAUSE people learned to love the shows, and REGARDLESS of the fact that they've seen it for free on TV before. Because it's a purchase out of love, for ARCHIVE reasons. They want to OWN the show they've seen before.

If ADV's (and obviously your) reasoning was correct, the DVD sales of American TV shows should be in the crapper. Alas, that's not how it is.

People who watch fansubs are less likely to buy a DVD in overall proportion to the people who watch the dubs.

That's making no sense whatsoever. You CANNOT watch the dubs unless you have purchased the DVD first (or watched it on TV). And you'll hardly contest the fact that the TV shows have extremely high sales.

Inuyasha got ~33k sales per dvd. The fansubs had over 100k downloads. The show also appeared on CN. This is a huge discrepency.

Thanks for proving my point.

Also, bittorrent numbers mean absolutely nothing. As I have said before, 50k can download a series and still claim it sucks and they would never buy it. Example: Gundam Seed Destiny. Bittorrent numbers do not give you any information unless they are like Bleach or Naruto's.

Of course they do. They let us gauge how big the market potential is. Huge download numbers don't automatically mean huge sales (the show must be good too). But bad download numbers almost irreversibly doom a show to commercial failure.

People will only watch these series cause they are free. I would bet people would not watch many of these series if they had to pay to watch them.

Most definitely. So you'd prefer to let customers purchase crap blindly? In other words, it's the fansub's fault that crap shows can't be sold anymore by flashy covers and positive pseudo-reviews? My heart is bleeding for the poor R1 labels.

It's exactly as Geneon said. Fansubs help good shows and hurt bad ones. And _both_ of these effects are beneficial for the anime community.