[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I see your point. And I don't think we disagree here. While you focus on the "rewrite of the series" part, I focus on the "rewrite of the characters" part.

Then we agree to disagree.

We both have different views.

Oh, don't worry, I've long wondered about the discrepancy between the Alto/Ranka shipping and what Ranka fans want Alto to actually be like as a person. ^^

And oddly enough, most Alto/Ranka fans dislike Alto entirely for his movie persona.

Rather, if you took Alto from the second half of the series and deleted him then added the calm and collected (even smart) Alto of the second movie, the series would've been epic win. And I don't mean in the romantic way at all but rather the mecha and war.

But I have to agree and disagree with you on several things. First off, I agree that Alto is very duty bound in the series, which is something which endeared him massively to me. While, in the end, his attitude of "them or us" was wrong, he formed it on the best information which was available to him at all times. When he found out, literally in the last episode, that the Vajra were also pawns of the Galaxy conspiracy and simply didn't understand how humanity functioned, he was able to let go of his hate immediately.

Him being this honor-bound and loyal is one of the main factors why I am one of the principal champions for this widely misunderstood character.

But once again, you avoid my point: people chose his path for him. One example that is very big is Mishima. He gave Alto false facts (and I say false because given the fact that it was Galaxy whom was the true enemy and Mishima was previously a member of said group and was still in leagues with them until a certain point of the story, they were lies) and twisted his head around.

Regardless of "information which was available to him at the times" or not, he still choose to believe those false facts. He questioned nothing. He basically said "they are my enemy." I blame his duty-bound behavior for this, as he is attached to Frontier as its protector and must see the Vajra as enemies or risk losing what his purpose is, but the movie justifies my point.

In the second movie, when Ranka spoke to him about the Vajra having souls and feelings, he later begins (in the middle of a battle no less) to question "is this my enemy?" Because he questioned his own government's view of the war, he was able to see evidence that put the Vajra on good terms: they helped their comrades in front of him. Later, when they are discussing the Vajra's feelings, he's able to give his own little input.

Saying that he didn't have enough information is a folly because I have to disagree. When Ranka is rescued from the mother ship by Brera, Alto never once questions why the Vajra kept her alive. He never once questioned things in the series. He just let the plot and characters around him drag him on. Ozma was the bigger person in this. He and Catherine immediately picked up on the opposite side of the war and began to question their own government's view of it. They then took the rest of the S.M.S. with them (excluding Luca and Alto).

So when I say he's duty-bound, that is a good thing when it comes to Frontier, Ranka, Sheryl, and his friends; but it's a bad thing when he cannot see the enemy when it's clear as day. It's not like it wasn't there to see. There were hints, hell, Ranka dropped a bomb, but Alto didn't pick it up that the Vajra weren't his enemies but rather confused allies.

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And this might seem a little off that topic, but my new theory about the Vajra attacking Frontier is that perhaps Galaxy attacked the Vajra first and since Frontier is Galaxy's sister (traveling near it), they attacked it believing it was involved (especially since Sheryl, a member of Galaxy and a person holding the fold quartz was there). Then they found Ranka - whom they believed to be a member of their race - on Frontier and their war with Frontier began.

That's just a theory, but it slightly holds water considering a few days after Sheryl arrives, Grace says "they waited right until your concert." Which means the Vajra have been attacking Galaxy before in my opinion.

I have to disagree on simply labeling him indecisive, however. I strongly believe ( however that is a personal judgement, based on what I saw in the series ) that he noticed that Sheryl was seriously in love with him in episode 12 and was basically told by Michael about Rankas feelings for him at the end of the same episode. If that wasn't enough indication, the sing-off in episode fifteen made it crystal clear what was going on with the girls.

His lack of decision on whom to choose, however, was not something which I chalk up to indecisiveness, but rather a desire not to hurt the other girl. We clearly disagree on whom he would have chosen, but my main point is that rather than indecision, I put his lack of just telling his own feelings to the two girls on his not wanting to break the heart of the "other" girl.

I'm going to mark this a heavy disagree.

I love your post for bringing this up though.

But it is indecisiveness.

What you just wrote down actually proves my point more than you realize. You state that he was aware of their feelings by the later episodes. You also state that he didn't want to hurt them.

However, if he was aware of their feelings, when Ranka left, what was stopping him from stating his feelings - in words - to Sheryl? He couldn't possibly hurt Ranka's feelings at that point. (This also works for the movie verse with Sheryl being considered dead and Ranka being alive.)

If he could see their feelings, then I have to ask why he didn't state his feelings when they were hurt by his lack of reply? If he could see their feelings, he had to be aware of that. 20 showed that when Ranka is crying. 22 showed that when Sheryl is crying. So why not state his feelings after already hurting them? If he was aware...

That's why I call it indecisiveness.

He's not aware of their feelings but rather his own. Why do you think all of us Alto/Ranka fans are actually floored that Alto/Sheryl fans will bring up Sheryl's disease in arguments? Alto isn't aware that Sheryl is suffering from the disease. He thinks it's a cold or a fever that will go away like nothing. He isn't aware of her feelings for him nor Ranka's. That is what makes him indecisive.

He didn't pick a girl in words because he was afraid to hurt him - he'd already done that if he actually realized their feelings - but because he simply can't. He's indecisive.

Two points: One, you focus much too much on the literal meaning of the word "selflessness". Nobody in real life is totally selfless and one cannot hold Sheryl to a degree that she has to be 100% selfless at all times.

Well, I agree to that. I even stated that: "even the most selfless act is selfish."

Point two: It's a matter of degrees. The points which you point out as Sheryl of the series being selfish are not very important on an ethical scale. Yes, she wants to be loved. Ethically, that is about one of the most natural things a human being can feel.

Except she's not thinking about his feelings is my point entirely. Which is why she feels guilty. And that makes her selfish. Instead of saying "forget about me, worry about others or Ranka," she allows him to stay by her side because she selfishly wants to be loved, and she fails to think about his feelings in the situation, and instead chooses to allow him to stay because he requested to.

I think your other examples will probably focus in part on her being rather vain. That, however, has little to do with selfishness, at least in how she expressed that behaviour.

Actually, one of my examples is not helping or otherwise assisting Miranda, considering she wants to be helpful and make the movie a bit success for Ranka. Instead, she stands her aside.

Which I still wanna put a "bitch, get out the way," on that scene because I love that piece of the episode.

However, I strongly disagree that Sheryl of the series showed little selflessness. That completely disregards that she was very much willing to sacrifice her life for the fleet and literally sang herself to death... she was only saved by Ranka gaining sudden magic abilities. And although she knew that she was being used by Leon, she put that aside at seeing the citizens of Frontier grieve for their loved ones.

How does saying "knows she's being used by Mishima" put her away from her movie self of "knowing she's being used by Galaxy?"

And overall, Sheryl showed very selfish behavior in the series and did not care for Frontier until later in the series. Notice that she sings for Galaxy in 6 (though also Alto, and that itself shows it) but doesn't realize that it will cause harm to Frontier in the near future. In the movie, that justifies my point. Sings for Galaxy, Vajra appear at Frontier, and she doesn't sing until Alto is shot down.

Using the end of the series as an argument doesn't work. You have to look at what she's done in the past as well. She was more selfish in the series. Just her desire to take Alto into the sky in 12, thus disregarding the fact she's there for charity, proves my point.

And I think I am not taking away from movie!Sheryls awesomeness, because I know that she made the same type of decisions. But I have to acknowledge that her seriously considering the harvesting of Rankas organs is a dark side to her, something which makes her rather more selfish, on an ethical scale, than Sheryl of the series, who just wanted to have the person whom she loved most at her side, while at the same time she was willingly sacrificing herself for a people who she otherwise barely knew. Sheryl from the series simply doesn't have a comparable dark act in her resumé.

Actually, Sheryl grew attached to Frontier in the series because of its people. Not only because of Alto but Ranka, Michael, Klan, Nanase, and all of her fans there. The people she met there inspired her. And so she wanted to protect them. However, by the time she felt this unyielding need to do so, she was told she was dying.

In the movie, this is revoked and Sheryl is given an actual chance from the get-go to prove herself a selfless person by singing to help save Ranka in the first movie (though regrettably she starts after Alto is shot down), and later in movie two, she is allowed to stand up and sing to help Frontier save the Vajra (and themselves).

I didn't say I entirely hated her movie persona, but I wish it would've been a little bit more blended with her series self.

I maintain that the story itself would change due to the necessary changes in characterization. Brera was too passive a character in the series and the movies to be considered a main character, something which is necessary to maintain the tension in a romantic triangle with two other main characters. Sure, if you want Alto to be the certain victor, you could maintain Brera as a side character, but to be considered an actual rival, he'd have to be elevated to a star position. And that would require a significant rewrite of the plot.

Well, yes; a bit of the plot would be rewritten.

However, it's not about "if I want" Alto to win the triangle in that sense. It's more along the lines that he would. Brera would still be an android (or cyborg) and Alto would still be the one who rescued Ranka in the beginning (because the plot doesn't change entirely). Brera is already a pilot so Alto joins the S.M.S. to protect Ranka. Without Sheryl around, Alto is always at Ranka's side. Brera maintains that "brother/sister" complex sadly because he has no emotions (ultimately). And Ranka would be attracted to the guy whom otherwise is the most sensitive and a person she can connect with: Alto. However, I won't say there isn't a possibility of Brera being a big part of her life, I just don't think that he could ever love her properly, given that he is unable to have actual feelings. And so, he would lose ultimately because she is a person who needs someone to love her for real. (And that being said, I think the same goes for Sheryl in some cases, albeit Sheryl just wants someone to love her, which is why Brera fits perfectly for her, since he caters to one's every need.)

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Hey, magnus, are we actually having a nice discussion??

I'm shocked. I just realized we aren't fighting. I like this conversation.